The Proposed Parish Poll Question

Mon 5 Dec 2016, 23:31

Indeed - obviously I wouldn't claim that this in-passing suggestion of 1971 was exactly equivalent to the fully-formed project of 2016. The point is that Charlbury's aspirations are long-standing and that it's this current bunch of dedicated volunteers who have shown the commitment to get things done. When we moved into the town in 1999, the Community Centre project was mired in recriminations about the lost grant from Hartwell and the unlikelihood of it ever happening. Thanks to the selfless effort of the current Thomas Gifford trustees and others, this has been turned around and we are on the cusp of getting a Community Centre the envy of local villages. I will be voting 'yes' to both the Community Centre and the Football & Sports Club on Thursday, and I hope others will too.

Mon 5 Dec 2016, 21:55

Richard.. you are probably not aware that the 'sports hall' referred to in the Leaflet was to provide changing facilities for the Football Club and the Tennis club.
The only facility at that time in Nine Acres was an open fronted pavilion which was very small and open to the element ! not very pleasant to change in when its mid winter and cold.
There was also a hard tennis court and a grass court immediately in front of the pavilion.
These courts were used on a regular basis by the tennis club, for practice and matches.
The original pavilion was extended and closed in by volunteers from the Football club who installed showers and toilets.
So its not taken 45 years, as the requirements were different years ago and people were happy to play badminton in the Memorial Hall.....
The question remains as to why its taken so long to raise the 'local' content of the cost ?

Mon 5 Dec 2016, 20:42

Earlier today I was reading a copy of the Leaflet from March 1971 which commented: "The suggestion has been made whether the area of Nine Acres immediately above and beyond the [Spendlove] school could be made available... in order to allow the provision of... a paved play area and quite possibly a covered sports hall."

It's only taken 45 years but it is finally happening. If the people of Charlbury had seized the moment in 1971 then yes, maybe it would have been a little cheaper. As it stands, I think the volunteers of the Thomas Gifford Trust deserve enormous thanks for being the team that has finally driven this to fruition. In another 45 years Charlbury will be continuing to benefit from their efforts, and the Community Centre will be as essential a part of the town as the decades-old Memorial Hall is now.

Meanwhile the Leaflet for September 1967 reports that the church clock was proving problematic and that donations would be welcome; and invites people to the upcoming meeting of the Charlbury Debating Society. Plus ca change...

Mon 5 Dec 2016, 19:46 (last edited on Mon 5 Dec 2016, 21:10)

Ah, the challenges with brevity. Actually the external works include the following: tarmac, kerbs and paving; pergola and canopy; bin stores, cycle and buggy stores; soft landscaping, lighting and fencing; and external signage. These items were required as part of the planning permission and/or requested by town during consultation. I'm happy to show you the detail if you would like to contact me at mglasgow@theridgegroup.com

Mon 5 Dec 2016, 17:42

£130k to do a bit of levelling suitable for parking 19 cars, some landscaping & access improvements to Nine acres recreation ground. Is that it? What value engineering has been carried out here, in other words identify the key cost drivers and find an alternative way forward. Is it essential that they all happen together, could part of the works be done at a later date (austerity won't last forever).

Mon 5 Dec 2016, 16:34 (last edited on Mon 5 Dec 2016, 16:35)

To answer the question posed earlier of why did the Thomas Gifford Trustees start the project if they did not have money to complete it:

A total of £1.8m has been raised to cover the build and opening, but some of the grants are time limited and would be lost if the build start had been delayed to spend more time raising the money for the outside works. The Trustees approached the Town Council in 2015 about a grant for the outside work but it was determined that it should be considered once the project was underway. Given the nature of the works parking, permissive footpath, access to Nine Acres, etc the Trustees submitted a grant funding request in early 2016 and have engaged with the Town Council in the current process. At the same time, the Thomas Gifford Trust and the Appeal Committee have continued working to secure funding for other aspects of the Centre

Mon 5 Dec 2016, 15:20 (last edited on Mon 5 Dec 2016, 15:21)

Tim
I think we will have to agree to disagree.
As a band D tax payer and more importantly a parent, I am more than happy to commit to paying £10 a year or 85p per month for great social and sporting facilities in my town. In my world, its two pints in the Bull to give up per annum or the petrol money I spend per week taking my children or teams I manage to sporting venues. As I stated before, the information we have is that it will be in constant use and likely to be over subscribed at peak times. All the young people I speak too are very excited about the centre!
I respect you have a different view and I think the Charlbury residents will let us know who they think has the more correct and progressive approach on Thursday.

Mon 5 Dec 2016, 13:59

Paul many thanks for the kind comments regarding my business I love having a business in Charlbury it is a fantastic place to work and live with a really great mixture of people living in the town.
I do like the sense of democracy this town has as well, which…

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Mon 5 Dec 2016, 08:47 (last edited on Mon 5 Dec 2016, 13:33)

Tim, I read your comments with interest especially where you refer to the question of what usage the sports hall would get from members of the Charlbury Community. Firstly, before I respond, may I state, that I'm a huge supporter of the impact and attractiveness to Charlbury that your business…

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Sun 4 Dec 2016, 20:09

Lots of very valid point points made here
I would just ask everyone who votes in the poll to consider it carefully before voting
Although the vote is not binding on the Town Council in my own opinion I think it most unlikely we would go against public opinion

Sun 4 Dec 2016, 19:36

The reply is a draft document - for questions that were asked over 6 months ago ( and being written many months before ) being answered by a % of the people who took the time to answer. This gives a snap shot of this moment in time ( or that of 6 months ago ) . It does not take into account the views and needs of the younger generation , who , in a few years time will voters and tax payers. They will have a wonderful community asset to use, as will any children and grand children yet to be born. Just like we have the use of the memorial hall and corner house today - the last meeting is the memorial hall to decide to vote - was over full - standing room only - Says it all

Sun 4 Dec 2016, 16:13 (last edited on Sun 4 Dec 2016, 18:06)

Tony you are absolutely right in respect to the town survey question 21,
The Charlbury community centre is expected to start this year, which of the following facilities or activities are you! likely to use or participate in ?
( the sports and social club is a separate venture.)
Keep fit / circuit training yes 257 - no 344
Cricket nets yes 61 - no 513
Badminton yes 133 - no 408
Football training yes 79 - no 522
Community hall for dances yes 519 - no 135 (you got me there Tony its a shame people forgot about the memorial hall and new kitchens.)
Sports hall yes 282 - no 292 (not a good start for a sports hall!)
Youth room yes 82 - no 488
Cafe yes 422 - no 219 (Charlbury already has a cafe with the deli and they will possibly be opening a bigger one next year.)
Library yes 74 - no 130
You see I put in the Yes results as well as the No results just to be fair :-)

As you also reminded me the reason that Charlbury is having this building is because surveys have shown significant support with limited negativity, its a shame they didn't have the 2016 town survey to go by, as it would of saved them a lot of effort.
Also you state that the additional money requested from the town council is for external roads, car park spaces, etc ( titivating!) all the things of which would, and should of been accounted for within the original cost set up.

Sun 4 Dec 2016, 14:46

Tim I noticed an interesting part in that you have selectively quoted the results for 4 specialist sports areas & have 'overlooked' the following
Keep fit 257 yes
Community hall for dances 519 yes
Sports hall 282 yes
Café & seating area overlooking 9 acres 422 yes
I addition there is the new up to date library required by OCC and the youth room
There will also obviously be many more sporting & other activities than the 4 you 'chose' to quote, many of which are currently being proposed by local groups now that the building is a reality
I can remind you that the reason Charlbury is having this building is because surveys have shown significant support with 'limited' negativity, and a group of people have spent significant time and effort to raise 1.8m of funding, including 'utilising' the motor fire brigade funds, which is sufficient to build & open the venue. The additional money requested from the Town Council is for external roads, car park spaces etc.
The alternative would have probably meant having to sell the land for development if no social build could be achieved

Sun 4 Dec 2016, 13:34

Having taken a good look at the town survey 2016 draft results.
I noticed a couple of interesting parts
1st: page 42
Question: Charlbury Community Centre will have a new sports hall would you use this hall for any of the following ?
Football 82 said yes 49 didn't know…

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Sun 4 Dec 2016, 10:36

As we can see - fundraising raises funds at about the rate of inflation. Fortunately, the Town Council can borrow from two very inexpensive sources - the Treasury or West Oxfordshire District Council. A loan from the Treasury is about 3% over 20 years - fixed rate. WODC are also looking for safe ways to invest their £23 million and will lend to Town & Parish Councils at a half percentage point lower than the Treasury. You might see it as a mortgage which is repaid through the council tax, I would call it an investment in the people of the town. Credit Unions couldn't offer such low rates and would be restricted in the time period of loan they could make, they have to maintain 10% liquidity. Other options such as community benefit schemes - that involves paying a return on the investment - which brings us back to the impossibility of funding public assets which are likely to have benefits in ways that are not financial.

Sat 3 Dec 2016, 11:36

Simon are you proposing to lead the fundraising then as so many other people have done for both facilities

Fri 2 Dec 2016, 16:07

Whatever the money is intended to be used for I have reservations (Unable to attend any meetings due to work and also cannot vote due to work (postal vote?)).
1. The town is committing it's residents to repaying a loan at an unknown rate of interest (variable) over the next 20 years....this takes me into my late 70's or perhaps 80's. Is this wise?
2. It sets a precedent ie. county/district councils have funds cut, forcing a very local tax, again and again
3. It's based on property value, not ability to pay, a fundamental flaw with the poll tax.
4. Funding a sports club ie a bar, is detrimental to the local pubs, it is a public subsidy.
We do need local facilities, but I feel that committing to a loan is not the right way to do this. The town has shown very many creative ways to raise funds, why can't we do this through a credit union type arrangement....why let a bank profit from us, let's be our own bank and lender.

Mon 21 Nov 2016, 16:12

Thanks Richard - so it is rather like an opinion poll and subject to interpretation mmmmm we wait and see then.

Sun 20 Nov 2016, 12:00

Anyone who is a registered elector in the Parish of Charlbury is eligible to vote. As explained, a Parish Poll is not binding so there is not really a concept of "carrying the day" as such: it is simply evidence of public support (or otherwise) for the plans, and it's up to the Department for Communities and Local Government to make the decision. In a town the size of Charlbury, DCLG is unlikely to be convinced by a turnout of 25 with 13 voting yes, even though that is a numerical majority: whereas I suspect a turnout of 1000 with 999 voting yes would convince them.

(As a general point, if you absolutely have to have an answer for something, the Forum is of course completely unofficial and informal - and intentionally so! - so it's not the place where you should necessarily expect an official answer to automatically appear, particularly in a fast-moving thread like this where posts from a few days ago can get quickly overlooked. But you can always email the Town Clerk, Roger Clarke, on charlburytc@btinternet.com, for an official answer.)

Sun 20 Nov 2016, 08:21 (last edited on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 10:17)

I am still looking for answers to my two questions made on the 3rd Nov.
1.How many people are eligible to vote?
2.Is there a minimum % turnout to make the vote valid?
3. Is the vote carried by a simple majority?
The scenario could be that only 50% turnout and 26% of the voters carry the day? Or even that 30% turnout and 16% carry the day.

Thu 17 Nov 2016, 19:09

Can the plans be put online for those that simply cannot get to meetings....some of us work away from Charlbury during the week.
Additionally, although not binding, could some sort of online poll be designed, so that the Town Council could at least get a feeling of the wishes of those that simply cannot get to vote on Dec 8th between very restrictive hours?

Thu 17 Nov 2016, 18:26

As several people said at last nights public meeting that they had not had a chance to see the plans for the proposed new building for the football and sports club we are going to try and put on a couple more presentations. I will let everyone know when we have times and dates.

Thu 17 Nov 2016, 10:38

Thankyou Richard and Peter for the info of price bands

Thu 17 Nov 2016, 10:30

SNAP Richard! Great minds think alike and at the same time it seems! - no harm in reporting the facts twice I guess!

Thu 17 Nov 2016, 10:25

For Tim, Susie and anyone else who wishes to know the impact of the proposed loan on Council Tax bills for each band I have included the figures below. Please note that these figures are indicative as they are based on the interest rate on a specific recent date. The actual interest rate will be determined on the date that the loan is drawn down but that rate will then be fixed for the entire period of the loan. Hence the impact on council tax bills will remain the same in cash terms throughout the loan term. In these days of historically low interest rates that has to be very good news.

To fund the proposed £130,000 grant for external works associated with the community centre the indicative annual costs for a household are:
Band: A - £4.29, B - £4.99, C - £5.70, D - £6.40, E - £7.81, F - £9.22, G - £10.69, H - £12.80

The equivalent figures for the proposed £70,000 grant towards the building of a new HQ building for the Charlbury Football & Sports Club are:
Band; A - £2.30, B - £2.68, C - £3.06, D - £3.44, E - £4.20, F - £4.95, G - £5.74, H - £6.88

Put another way, the cost per week for a household to fund both grants would be approx.
Band A - 13p, B - 15p, C - 17p, D - 19p, E - 23p, F - 25p, G - 32p, H - 38p

Thu 17 Nov 2016, 10:06

You could potentially fundraise another way but bear in mind that it has taken the Community Centre Appeal 13 years to raise £223,000 towards the £2m project (the rest coming from grants, etc.). The Football & Sports Club will also be seeking to raise the remaining £150,000 for the £220,000…

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Thu 17 Nov 2016, 09:49

Tim - Roger Clarke gave a full breakdown of the annual cost for Council Tax bands A, D and H at the meeting yesterday evening, for both the Thomas Gifford Trust and Football and Sports Club requests. He has these figures.

Simon - From what Roger explained at the meeting, any loan taken out by the Town Council would be at a fixed (currently low) interest rate, so would not be subject to any future rate increases.

Thu 17 Nov 2016, 09:40 (last edited on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 10:34)

Not able to be at the meeting last night were the amounts for each council band disclosed as Susie asked ? As surely we are not to be expected to vote yes to anything without knowing how much each householder would be paying in advance ?

Thu 17 Nov 2016, 09:09

Simon, in answer to your question about if it would be detrimental to the remaining pubs, the answer is no. There has been a sports club for over 30 years in some form or another and so if it was to have a bar it would be no different to what the community had available up until last year.

Thu 17 Nov 2016, 08:44 (last edited on Thu 17 Nov 2016, 08:46)

I wasn't able to go last night and having read through these posts, although no-one seems to have directly answered the question - am I right in thinking that if you're not here on 8th December to vote - then we don't get a vote? We are out of the country so a bit difficult to get back in time :). Also agree with Simon, why does it have to be a loan - surely we can fundraise another way and not have to impose an additional increase (and I'm sure there will be many over the coming 20 years) in council tax? There are many people I'm sure who live on a budget/pension in Charlbury as it is! Also, what happens if the vote is a majority of no? From a previous comment it seems the Town Council can overrule that anyway?!

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 21:01

Whatever the money is intended to be used for I have reservations (Unable to attend any meetings due to work and also cannot vote due to work (postal vote?)).
1. The town is committing it's residents to repaying a loan at an unknown rate of interest (variable) over the next 20 years....this takes me into my late 70's or perhaps 80's. Is this wise?
2. It sets a precedent ie. county/district councils have funds cut, forcing a very local tax, again and again
3. It's based on property value, not ability to pay, a fundamental flaw with the poll tax.
4. Funding a sports club ie a bar, is detrimental to the local pubs, it is a public subsidy.
We do need local facilities, but I feel that committing to a loan is not the right way to do this. The town has shown very many creative ways to raise funds, why can't we do this through a credit union type arrangement....why let a bank profit from us, let's be our own bank and lender.

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 16:40

I am unable to attend tonight but can someone let us know what the impact would be on ALL bands of houses, and not just Band D. Thanks

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 16:26

That's fine but it's not connected with the council tax form, which was Tim's (interesting!) suggestion. It's just a way to make an online donation, and the link happens to be on the same page as another link to pay Council Tax, which is why Google has suggested it to you. Maybe spend three minutes searching next time? :)

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 16:01

Richard; I spent 2 minutes searching the internet for "council tax voluntary contribution". This page came up https://www.west-norfolk.gov.uk/homepage/79/online_payments
Bottom right of that page "Make a voluntary contribution to the local sea defence fund".

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 15:56

so if it goes to a vote and we don't like the outcome can we demand a rerun until it does ?

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 15:31

It's not rocket science but unfortunately it's not something that the Government allows councils to do! I guess you could persuade our shiny new MP to try and change the law...

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 15:08 (last edited on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 15:20)

The simplest thing to do would be have a box to tick on your council tax form each year to say that you wish to pay "x" amount extra per year to be contributed to the loan for either of the 2 applications that way everyone is happy those of you who want to support the titivating of the "Community Centre" tick that box those who want to support the sports club building tick their box and then those who do not wish to contribute to either get their way as well and don't have to pay for something they don't want in the first place. This means there is no need for a additional "vote " to decide if they go ahead it may take longer for the loans to be paid off in the long run then the people who support the particular projects can pay for them.
Hardly rocket science really

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 11:33

Thank you Tony.

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 10:28

Oh dear. My post yesterday seems to have stirred up a hornet's nest of replies. Perhaps I could respond to some of them:
Pearl, I apologise if I offended you, or anyone else, with my comments. I agree, of course, that we should encourage our young teams and congratulate them when they do well. Stephen's posting was under the Parish Poll heading and I commented on it as such. Perhaps with hindsight he would agree it might have been better to start a new thread.

Richard, I don't disagree with most of what you say. I'm sure all of us have had no qualms about giving or paying a pound or ten at the Street Fair or Beer Festival knowing it would benefit people other than ourselves. Committing present and future residents to years of additional Council Tax to repay a loan of hundreds of thousands is in wholly different league.

Martin, I have no wish to be offensive to anybody; certainly not Volunteers as I am one myself. Thank you for at least a partial answer to the questions I posed in my earlier contribution on 3 Nov. Having witnessed the ups and downs of the Community Centre Project over the last 29 years I am well aware of the need to make sure it is completed now it has reached this stage. Having lived in a city where an elevated exit from the ring road was christened 'the ski-jump' because the multi-story car park it was intended to serve remained unbuilt I've no wish to see the CC left half finished. What I (and others to judge from some of the earliest posts in this thread)are less comfortable with is the proposal to grant further tens of thousands to one particular group. I am pleased to see the clear and detailed note from the Town Council which offers reassurance regarding the terms on which it would be granted.

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 10:27 (last edited on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 10:45)

Over the last few years I have been clearing the tennis courts and hard surface in the Autumn and winter months. In that time I have become aware of the importance of the weak winter sun being important in maintaining their condition. Two years ago small trees and bushes were removed to allow more sun to reach certain areas.
I was slightly aghast when clearing last week of the height of the new community centre and its effect on shading the courts. I also went to the new Social club presentation and although very impressed with the proposal did express concerns about its closeness to the hard surfaces.
There is a problem with moss in shaded areas and the sun clears frost of the courts. I do feel that if the proposed development goes ahead then one court will become unplayable for most of the year and also winter months all courts could be affected.
Solutions would be to move the courts/hard surface towards Nine Acres rd. or sideward as the youth football pitch is now smaller than in the past. Whatever the solution the cost should not fall on the users eg the tennis club/youth football as they have not caused the problem.

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 08:20

Yes Steve I did the same and they are certainly putting in a lot of effort now
I spoke at length to Martin Prew and the facilities would be open to all and will provide required extra changing as well as a social area near to the football pitches so in my opinion we have two very worthwhile causes here

Wed 16 Nov 2016, 07:44

I went to the Friday evening presentation by the Football & Social Club. I came away impressed with the social/community benefits of their proposals.

Tue 15 Nov 2016, 23:08

Russell
As the precept is forvthge parish of Charlbury I agree that you could not vote -presume you were in Cornbury?
However you may well have good comments to make as you have done in the past then I don't think you would be prevented from speaking tomorrow
For all other followers of this thread i would just say come along to question us or put ypour point of view

Tue 15 Nov 2016, 22:51

Being a Mexican, living on the wrong side of the Rio Grand (Sorry, Evenlode) I note that it appears to suggest only those parishioners affected by the precept can vote and speak at the meeting. If that is correct I'll have to keep my powder dry on this subject. Could a Town Councillor enlighten me. I'm sure the fine burghers wouldn't want their funding decisions influenced by a US landers.

Tue 15 Nov 2016, 22:16

We totally endorse Richard Fairhurst's comments. Sarah and Mark Sulik

Tue 15 Nov 2016, 20:26

Well I'm sorry Tony I was saying exactly what I felt and had absolutely no hidden agenda, I don't know how you can even say that. They deserve to be congratulated and we should be proud.
It's unfortunate the posting happens to be in this thread but I haven't seen a separate one for Sport.

Tue 15 Nov 2016, 19:42

Stevens posting does actually start with 'solely on a football note'
No special pleading there only posting that the Town has teams to be proud of.

Tue 15 Nov 2016, 19:40

Pretty much everything is special pleading if you put it like that. Cutting the grass on the Mill Field is special pleading for people who use the Mill Field. Paying for new play equipment is special pleading for people who have young children. Maintaining the cemetery is special pleading for people whose relatives are buried in Charlbury. So it goes on.

You can certainly take a view that everything in Charlbury should be funded directly and solely by its users without any recourse to grant funding; and if that's your view then you can vote 'no' in any parish poll (that is, after all, why there is such a poll!). Personally, I'm happy for the money I pay for cider at the Beer Festival to go towards funding projects that don't personally benefit me; I'm happy for the things I buy at Street Fair to go towards some Memorial Hall/Corner House facilities I might not use; and I'm happy for £4 of my annual council tax to go towards providing good facilities for those who enjoy and play sport.

Tue 15 Nov 2016, 19:30

"Special pleading" "Football lobby" "special treatment" , quite offensive towards all the volunteers working hard to try and make this happen.
The facility will obviously be of benefit to our football club, but would also be used by a number of other groups.

Tue 15 Nov 2016, 18:52

Sorry, but the postings from Steven, Martin, Mandy and Pearl only re-inforce the view that, in spite of the stated intention to change the name of Social Club, this remains special pleading by one group (the football lobby) for special treatment in provision of funds from the taxpayers.

Tue 15 Nov 2016, 11:11 (last edited on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 12:07)

'Congratulations' Boys! That's excellent news.

Mon 14 Nov 2016, 22:14

Both charlbury fc teams are top off there leagues

Mon 14 Nov 2016, 22:13

Steven, both Saturday teams are top of their respective leagues. First team in the Premier League and Reserves in
Division 3. As a club we are delighted with the season so far. Saturday football is extremely important to many and a new social club will be fantastic for the club and the community. It would certainly help attract new players and help us grow and maybe even have 3 sides on a Saturday.

Mon 14 Nov 2016, 21:55

On a solely footballing note, I see Charlbury Town FC are currently top of the league after an 8-3 win away on Saturday:

witneyanddistrict.pitchero.com/match-info/tables

Sat 12 Nov 2016, 17:30

Thank you everyone despite the weather came over to the pavilion and had a look at the proposed plans for the new sports club gave us positive feedback.

Sat 12 Nov 2016, 10:42

Very impressed with the plans & progress for the Sports & Social club. About time Charlbury 'caught up' all the surrounding villages and had a social bar next to the changing rooms

Sat 12 Nov 2016, 08:02 (last edited on Sat 12 Nov 2016, 08:05)

Thank you to everyone who came along to our first presentation event yesterday and thank you for all of the positive feedback. Although the weather is not nice today don't forget there is another chance to meet us this morning in the pavilion on nine acres from 9 til 12. Charlbury Town Football and Sports Club.

Fri 11 Nov 2016, 18:05

Thanks Peter, I now understand the process much better. Now to be persuaded by the two meetings on Thursday & Friday. Look forward to polling day.

Fri 11 Nov 2016, 12:37

Stephen. As stated in the news item, the resolution included there was passed by the Town Council in September and is not itself open to amendment for 6 months. However, this resolution does not dictate the details of any parish poll. The council resolution starts with the words "Subject to…

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Thu 10 Nov 2016, 13:50

Thanks for the News Item, Peter. I read this Town Council resolution as a Town Poll on a single vote for approval of a £200k Loan. Please can you confirm that this is indeed a correct interpretation, and if so whether it is open to amendment following any tabled proposal at the planned public meeting. This will then answer the original question posed by Russell on this subject.

Thu 10 Nov 2016, 13:31

Please see news item www.charlbury.info/news/1957 which includes the text of the resultion passed by the Town Council in September spelling out the conditions that the Town Council will attach to the awarding of the grants if approved.

Wed 9 Nov 2016, 21:05

Liz, thanks for the update on local government legislation and others re S&SC status. And Martin, looking forward to seeing the presentation. Cold beer after tennis... sounds like one for the vote weary, no matter how many ballots.

Wed 9 Nov 2016, 19:31

Thank you Phil & Richard. This extra information is needed to understand why the two are being linked together. Sounds like a very sensible idea.

Wed 9 Nov 2016, 18:18

With the output due soon (hopefully) from the neighbourhood plan wouldn't it be sensible to wait for this? The results may suggest that the community would prefer their increased council tax to go on something as yet unidentified. I'd prefer to have a complete picture of future spending priorities so that a fully informed decision can be made.

Wed 9 Nov 2016, 17:42

So do we Liz, I have already had a meeting with Mark Jarman (Tennis Club Chairman) and I am having a meeting with their full committee on 3rd December, to show them our provisional plans.
If you would like any more information, please feel free to come along to our presentation events.

Wed 9 Nov 2016, 17:25

We expect tennis and other sports to use the same facility, not just football.

Wed 9 Nov 2016, 16:34

Yes - as Phil says, Community Amateur Sports Club (CASC) status is absolutely key to the whole process. There is a long description at www.gov.uk/government/publications/community-amateur-sports-clubs-detailed-guidance-notes/community-amateur-sports-clubs-detailed-guidance-notes , but to summarise, a CASC:

• must be open to the whole community
• must have membership that is open to all without discrimination
• must provide facilities to all members without discrimination
• must not charge fees that represent a significant obstacle to membership or use of its facilities
• can only reinvest any surplus income into the club (not distribute it to third parties)
• can only supply food and drink "as a social benefit which arises incidentally from the sporting purposes of the club"
• cannot, on dissolution, pass its assets on to anyone apart from a CASC, a registered charity or a governing sports body

To successfully register as a CASC, a club must submit its governing documents, guaranteeing the above points, to HMRC for approval. Only if the articles meet this criteria will HMRC grant approval. Charlbury Town Council's proposed grant would be contingent on CASC status being obtained - so if the club is not "open to the whole community" to HMRC's satisfaction, no grant will be forthcoming.

A CASC-compliant constitution, based on model HMRC articles and those published by sports governing bodies, has been drafted for the Charlbury Football & Sports Club and I hope the volunteers behind the club will be able to make it available at the forthcoming exhibitions and meeting.

Wed 9 Nov 2016, 15:15

I thought the new club was " Charlbury Football and Sports Club " no mention of Social

Wed 9 Nov 2016, 14:52

Alice, thank you for the information.
It is certainly true that the local precept for this town has been historically low. It is also true that, under the new legislation, the Town Council must seek approval from tax-paying residents for a loan application.
The Town Council debated the two major bids at great length before voting to advocate both; subject to approval from the public.
One further point in response to your commentary: the bid from the newly constituted Charlbury Football Sports and Social Club is predicated on its status as a Community Amateur Sports Club (CASC) approved by Sport England.
The club's membership is not exclusive and it would not compete with local public houses. The new club would focus on football and on family participation in sport. This is not something that the town's pubs can offer.

Wed 9 Nov 2016, 11:12

This is a good question Jim. As I understand it the answer is that the limitation on precepts legislation (Local Govt. Finance Act 1992 - Chap IVA Limitation of Council Tax & Precept & Localism Act requires a precepting authority (i.e. District & County) to conduct a referendum if they plan to increase the rate by more than 2%. Town & parish councils used to be excluded from this legislation which resulted in an average increase of 5% on English town & parish precepts as they struggled to replace the expenditure in their localities that was no longer being funded by the District/County. Mr Pickles was outraged by this 5% increase - an average of 4 or 5 pints of beer a year per household - so he extended the rules to Town/Parish councils in 2015/16. Charlbury TC appears to have adopted the policy of not increasing the rate for years and appears to have only taken loans to replace loans that had fallen out which is why their precept was below the level of average for all Towns & Parishes in West Oxfordshire and was held to a level of increase significantly below state benefit and pension rate increases during a period of falling food and energy costs.

My question is that whilst there is a clear power for local councils to fund community centres I'm not aware of the legislation that permits them to fund clubs which are exclusive to a membership. Maybe 'general spending - a limited amount of money on anything they deem of benefit to the community'. And that just raises the questions 'how much is a limited amount and what is benefit to the community'. Maybe someone can refer us to the permitting legislation? I do have a genuine concern about undermining our local pubs through public funding.

Tue 8 Nov 2016, 14:43

There are new rules related to Public Works Loan Board loans, which require demonstrating support for borrowing from the affected community. Hence the parish poll and the question.

Tue 8 Nov 2016, 12:48

In addition to separate questions, given how vote weary we all are, why is the Town Council putting this to a vote? Have previous grants funded by council tax through public works loans e.g. cemetry extension, Memorial Hall refurbishment, been put to a vote? If so I have missed them.

Tue 8 Nov 2016, 10:28 (last edited on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 21:56)

Tue 8 Nov 2016, 09:21

Hans - the vote is not taken at the meeting which is for questions and information
The poll will be taken in December
The Parish Poll will be held on Thursday 8th December in the Memorial Hall between 4pm and 9pm

Mon 7 Nov 2016, 22:32

The meeting is Wed 16 Nov: Public meeting - proposed Town Council community facilities grants

Mon 7 Nov 2016, 21:40 (last edited on Thu 10 Nov 2016, 21:56)

Mon 7 Nov 2016, 19:19

Well said Martin
You are doing a good job to support a good cause
I hope people do come along to your events and also to the public consultation this Wednesday to voice their views

Sun 6 Nov 2016, 18:33 (last edited on Sun 6 Nov 2016, 18:37)

The Sports & Social Club no longer exists, we are a new group of people with new ideas, we took over the running of the Sports & Social Club for the last 14 months of its existence. Why not come along and talk to us and find out about our plans for the future at the 2 presentation events on 11th November from 5 pm to 9 pm in the Corner House and 12th November from 9 am to 12 pm in the Pavillion on Nine Acres. When we applied to the Town Council for a grant it was independent of the Gifford Trusts application so I feel it is a little unfair to suggest that we have piggy backed their application, this is just one of many applications for grants and funding that we are making. As I stated in my previous post it is my belief that you will be able to vote for either bid or both, but the best bet for a definitive answer will be at the town meeting. Rather than get into a long drawn out discussion on here this will be my last post in this thread. Hope to see you at one of our presentation events this coming weekend.

Sun 6 Nov 2016, 12:00

The then titled Sports and Social Club were advised by TGC trustees in the early 2000's that if they wished to replace their facilities when the Community Centre was built, they would need to fund raise. Advice was given about possible funds they could access, such as brewers. They have enjoyed a rent free building since 1997. I agree with Russell that there should be 2 questions in the parish poll.

Thu 3 Nov 2016, 20:37

thanks Tony, i assume such information will be made public before the vote?

Thu 3 Nov 2016, 17:31 (last edited on Fri 4 Nov 2016, 07:38)

Sarah
It does indeed depend on you tax band
For the definitive answer you should contact our Town Clerk Roger Clark who is also the person to contact if you have any questions about the proposed loan or the procedure or the public meeting to discus tjis

Thu 3 Nov 2016, 17:18

Is it £10 per household or it it dependent on council tax band, and if so what are the amounts per band? Thank you

Thu 3 Nov 2016, 16:52

Like Russell Ingham, we remain puzzled following Martin Prew's response to his earlier posting as it prompts as many questions as it answers:
1. We may have missed something, but We understood that the building erected not so long ago on Nine Acres was put there to replace changing facilities which would be lost when the old buildings were demolished. What additional pressure will need to be alleviated 'when the Community Centre is up and running'?

2. The second paragraph begins by emphasising the importance of football to justify recent change of name from Sports and Social Club but then goes on to suggest this is only temporary. Is Football making special pleading or not? If not it is difficult to see the motives in all the changes. If it is, who will be next in the queue? The Tennis Club? Karate? Netball? Badminton?

3. What efforts has the former Sports and Social Club' made already to raise funds towards new facilities? If the emphasis is on Football, where are the FA in all this ?" it should be their job to foster the grass roots of the sport and they should be the first port of call for funds rather than the hard pressed Council Tax payers.

Tony and Judith Graeme

Thu 3 Nov 2016, 16:52

The question should be "Does each household wish to have a £10 tax imposed upon them for the next 20 years?" As with Brexit we are being asked to make a decision that not only effects us today but people who may live in Charlbury over the next 20 years. I agree with Russell's question as too whether the poll on two issues should be separated. Further I would ask what are the polling criteria? Is a certain percentage turnout required and what is the required majority to carry the vote? Or are we back to the Brexit 52% carrying the day. Before I vote I hope we are given much more detail on the statement "to improve the look of the site." I understand that the Gifford Trust would have the control of £130,000. I look forward to hearing the detailed plans from the Sports and Social Club as to their detailed plans and essentially their constitution governing the use of the facilities.

Thu 3 Nov 2016, 12:18

if people cant make the public meeting, will somebody do a twitter feed.

Thu 3 Nov 2016, 11:20

Martin,thank you for the background but sadly I remain puzzled as you have not answered my question. I assume that our sage Town Council elders have already judged both grant applications as being worthy and fit for further action, and, furthermore, that judgement will have been impartial and devoid of vested interests; it is after all, their job to so do. Moreover, I expect that the justifications for both cases will be explained at the parish meeting by the appropriate ambassadors. So, I ask again "Why has the Town Council elected to join both bids together"? If each bid was voted for separately then any successful bid would have won on its own merit and not as the result of being "piggy-backed" on to the other. Finally, a two question vote would give us the compromise option to reduce our tax increase whilst still enabling us to contribute to the town. I believe that in our present national financial uncertainty that further council tax increases will occur over the next few years which will far outweigh this self-imposed increase. Of course, a 2 question poll may arise from the parish meeting.

Wed 2 Nov 2016, 12:24

I'm out of the country on Dec 8th. Surely there is provision for a postal/proxy vote?

Wed 2 Nov 2016, 06:56 (last edited on Wed 2 Nov 2016, 07:35)

The Sports & Social Club no longer exists in it's previous form and has now become Charlbury Football and Sports Club, this will encompass the football clubs of Charlbury (the previous club was open to all and will continue to be in it's new format). It will be run by a new committee whose hope is to provide a building that has changing rooms and a social area, which can be used by the whole community, we will be doing a presentation evening/morning on the 11th and 12th November to show people our proposed new building. The reason for new changing rooms is to hopefully alleviate the pressure on the existing changing rooms when the community centre is up and running. We have been working closely with members of the Town Council and Nine Acres Committee over the last few months, we also have the support of the Gifford Trust.
Football has played in the town for over 100 years and we feel is a large part of the community, our intentions are to become a Community Amateur Sports Club which will allow us to use the money made in the social area and return it to the community (think along the lines of the Beer Festival and how that works), if you would like to come along to our presentation events I will gladly explain this to you in more detail. The Club itself was and always will be very family orientated and was used by many families from within the town. It is my belief that you will be able to vote separately on the proposed sums of money (either for the Gifford Trust or for the Sports Club or both) but it is ours and the Gifford Trust's hope that the town will support both projects to provide outstanding facilities for a town of this size. If you would like anymore information before our presentation events please feel free to contact me via my email: cm.prewy@btinternet.com or mobile: 07590 749620.

Tue 1 Nov 2016, 21:47

Can somebody enlighten me as to why a grant for the Community Centre project (which appears to be a local, open to all amenity by both function and definition) seems to be anchored to a grant for the Sports and Social Club (which l believe by its function and definition can not be considered as a local amenity)? If the size(s) of the sums needed warrant a parish poll then why are we not going to be given two questions: firstly, that of funding £130k to the Community Centre and, secondly, that of funding £70k to the Sports and Social Club? The risk involved with combining two separate funding requests into one poll question is obvious - neither may be sanctioned.