The Bull Hotel

Sat 21 Feb 2015, 18:16

I think it might be appropriate to call a halt to this punch-up here. I'm sure there is more to discuss about the Bull so please feel free to start a new thread as and when, but we've surely exhausted the did-they/didn't-they.

Fri 20 Feb 2015, 18:55

Tony, sorry unable to help a such strong opinion, but please tell me: how many business are in Charlbury ??? And all of this window, ex shops, in Market Street and Sheep Street meaning to you ??? And who will ever take the challenge of The Bull in the future at this price ????

Tue 17 Feb 2015, 09:47

So the earlier assertions that the Bull has been marketed are shown to be incorrect. Maybe Ciardi would like to acknowledge this!
The present owners took over a successful business which is now struggling despite the evidence that similar businesses in the surrounding villages are thriving.
Their answer is to close a 300 year old Inn, with the negative effect on the centre of Charlbury, asset strip and disappear.
I for one will not be 'supporting' the Bull until new owners are in place, and will support Liz in preventing its closure

Tue 17 Feb 2015, 09:21

A decision has to be made by the planning officer by March 9th. If she decides to approve it then I have requested that it goes to a planning committee for consideration. The earliest that can happen will be April. However she may decide to refuse it in which case it will not go to a committee.

Tue 17 Feb 2015, 07:08

I was trying to find that out on the WODC website yesterday and it looks like the next planning committee meeting is 2nd March.

Mon 16 Feb 2015, 19:37

Some interesting comments from the WODC Design & Conservation Officer now lodged, including:-
Comments: I was surprised when we had the pre-application meeting with the applicants and their advisors how little work they had undertaken with respect to any justification for this far reaching proposal ?" except that they were not willing to put the business on the market because they needed to recoup their losses.
As now submitted there seems to have been very little (if any) development in this argument and really no further work on the various listed building and urban design issues that I raised at that meeting.

His ultimate recommendation to the council is that the application is refused.
Does anyone have an idea of when the application will actually be considered and decided upon.

Thu 12 Feb 2015, 10:25

That one's not particularly confidential.... just google the address and you find it's the Mermaid!

Thu 12 Feb 2015, 10:09

To elaborate on Rosemary's point, she is highlighting advertisements like this:
www.daltonsbusiness.com/pubs-for-sale/confidential-burford-oxfordshire-uk/312978

Wed 11 Feb 2015, 18:43

Liz, I did try to find if The Bull was up for sale, some months ago, but if it was, it was not being identified by name. On the commercial site that I looked at, it is possible to advertise a premises without saying what it is called or where exactly it is. I guess that had I made further enquiries, I could have obtained some extra information, but the point here is that I saw some premises for sale but there was no identifying name - so there is potential for obscurity and therefore it is a grey area.

Wed 11 Feb 2015, 09:13

The objections on the WODC site now number 86. The closing date is tomorrow and the link is here.

Wed 11 Feb 2015, 00:11

Lease or sale doesn't makes much of difference speaking of commercial activity, it is a useless cavil. And an other one is to pretend to see a showing board, that is exactly the way to never sale a commerce. If they are proceeding they have the requested evidences, I suppose are not so naives. This is a matter of importance for them and believe are assisted by specialists. Having myself studied planning applications deeply in the past can affirm you will never be able to stop this happening on this way. We still leave in a free country and the private property is still respected as it is. The Bull belong to them and not to the community. The plan will be granted if the development will respect certain rules. Dot.

Tue 10 Feb 2015, 20:27

If the Bull has been on sale, where's the evidence? I have not seen a 'For Sale' board...

Tue 10 Feb 2015, 09:35

Those are lease not sale prices.

Mon 9 Feb 2015, 17:35

It was, it was on sale, very long time the Bull. Price requested 350000. And the Bell 150/170000 by Green King. Doubt they will ever find anyone. The Bull has been out for sale for largely more than a year. And I know it very well since was part of my search in considering to run a business here. Also the Lamb Inn for 30000 by Bakespears and so many others....

Mon 9 Feb 2015, 11:29 (last edited on Mon 9 Feb 2015, 11:30)

Thank you, Richard, for pointing out that this is a planning application and therefore people are entitled to make comments both for and against it.

As far as I can see from those comments on the WODC website (which is NOT a petition, simply a collection of the various comments that have been made by local residents in response to the appplication), no-one has so far written in support. I have asked the planning officer to let me know what the balance of comments is, as some may have been sent in by post and not published on the website, so it may be that some people have written in to support it.

If you wish to do so you have until Thursday and the details of how to do this are in my recently delivered leaflet.

WODC policy is very clear that in order for change of use to be granted, the pub must have been put on the market as a going concern, and states the following " Where possible a robust marketing exercise will be required to demonstrate a lack of commercial or community interest in continuing the community facility or service." A pub is regarded in this context as a community facility. So if anyone has evidence that this has been done they need to let the planning officer know. Personally, I cannot find any evidence of any attempt to market the Bull as a going concern.

Mon 9 Feb 2015, 11:16

"You shout at open mouth to protest and very strongly tell us you have never been in none of the Charlbury commercial exercises and in none of the Churches."

I assume this refers to a comment I made yesterday but it is a complete misrepresentation of what I wrote.

Mon 9 Feb 2015, 10:41

Hmmm... if the Bell is for sale, it is not on the open market - no trade of any adverts on the Internet. The Bull neither.

Mon 9 Feb 2015, 09:16

Yes, it has been advertised on sale in website dedicated at this purpose. ( The bell too is on the market, but none approaches Green King ) They have certainly been obliged to place a temporary team to don't keep it close as I said I have also evaluate the possibility before to open the Ciardi Coffeehouse. You shout at open mouth to protest and very strongly tell us you have never been in none of the Charlbury commercial exercises and in none of the Churches. Just stay at home and stop asking people to work and risk for your point of view and caprices.

Mon 9 Feb 2015, 07:57

Well said Janet.

Mon 9 Feb 2015, 00:49

The document submitted in support of the application actually says that "there are good reasons as to why a sustained marketing exercise [to sell the pub] has not taken place in this instance".

John (and others), remember you can write to WODC to support the application as well as to object to it.

Mon 9 Feb 2015, 00:07

Consider this. If, as mentioned previously, the Bull has been on the market for over a year, according to the local plan "For an applicant to demonstrate that a shop unit is not viable, it will be necessary to provide evidence that the shop has been effectively marketed over a realistic period of time, and that the marketing exercise has generated little realistic prospect of the shop being sold as a going concern".
Therefore the conditions of policy SH5 have been met.
I can only assume that this is also true for hotels, restaurants etc.

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 23:53

Angus, I think you miss the point. You cannot run a business if the community do not use it. What do you think a business requires in order to pay its rates, loans, staff etc?

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 23:39 (last edited on Mon 9 Feb 2015, 08:05)

Janet, you write that The Bull "is not a community asset". But it is an asset to the community - just like the florist, the hairdressers, News And Things and Cotswold Frames which are also privately funded businesses, as far as I know.

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 23:29

Gareth Epps posted this in the other forum about the Bull. Thought you might like to see it here:
'People may find the CAMRA pub viability test www.camra.org.uk/public-house-viability-test handy. It is designed for just this sort of thing. Has anyone been in touch with North Oxfordshire CAMRA? In terms of competitor case studies the Killingworth Castle - shut by Greene King and now thriving - is a good example in a much smaller village.'

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 22:53

Thank you Ciardi Coffee House, along with a few others, for voicing the alternate point of view.

We have lived in Charlbury for 37 years and have seen many changes in that time. We have enjoyed meals at the Bull, when the pressures of business allow, and would be sad to see it no longer operate as a pub.

But, although it is apparently valued by many, it is not a community asset. it is a private business into which the owners have invested their money and their time, working long and often anti social hours.

It is very easy to sit and criticise the owners and to blame them for the problems. How many of those who seem to think they "know better" actually have experience of running their own business, and in particular a catering business? How many would be prepared to risk their own money in such a venture? How many would be prepared to work 12 hours plus a day, 7 days a week?

And if we are talking about community assets, what about an analogy using the younger generation, i.e. 20 somethings, who also contribute to the community but are finding it increasingly difficult to buy a home in Charlbury. How many people who have posted here against the current plans for the Bull, would be prepared to sell their home at an under value, i.e. a loss, to allow a young couple to remain in the community in which they grew up? Because that, it seems to me is what you think the owners of the bull should do.

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 22:41 (last edited on Sun 8 Feb 2015, 22:46)

And by the way: The Bull has been on the market for more than a year. I wouldn't ever dream to bid for it as i knew very well it will never be a successful business, since the mentality in town it is what it is. Save 3 pound for a less costly meal but spend 10 for the fuel ... and either the Bell is on the market!!! But who will never take it ??? Soon you will have other tree hoses development. Think of it.

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 22:32

Andrew, why don't you make an offer at owners and you run the Bull as you consider the best, instead of agitating water and criticise the conduct of this business ??? If it is such an historic asset for you buy it and keep it going....If you ever will do well I will be a client !!!

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 20:15

What petition? The discussion here is about a planning application, and how to object to it, should one choose to, which isn't and shouldn't be about personalities. The planning application is to change the Bull from being a commercial property (with attached house) to three houses. The concerns expressed are that if this were to go ahead, the Bull, with centuries of history as an inn behind it, would be lost forever as a community asset. There are alternative courses of action for the owners if they are unhappy with the return on their investment, namely to sell it as a going concern (which might even attract a bid from the community); or to attract more custom in a way that other high-end pubs in the area have managed to. Letting the planning application succeed is certainly no way to support the Bull.

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 19:45

I do think it is a bit unfair that if the owners of The Bull have had enough then who are we to stop them. It is theirs to sell and though I have always thought The Bull consistently better than The Bell (with change of management in the past far to frequent), I do think it unfair to comment about Alix and Stewart wanting to sell their property.

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 17:23 (last edited on Sun 8 Feb 2015, 18:14)

Ciardi Coffee House, who said I never went to The Bull? You don't know how many times I've been there!

I have never been to The Three Horseshoes, The Ciardi Coffee House, the hairdressers, or The Methodist Church, The Roman Catholic Church, The Baptist Church for services but I still consider each one an asset to Charlbury!

And this is not a petition!!

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 15:41

Just tried the links that a couple of you have stuck on here to complain about the closure of a much loved centre piece of the village,but alas their not working so I suggest rather than sitting at home and posting your 'How we can save the world' opinions on here you all get out there and enjoy a very well kept pint and some decent food that Stuart and Alix are working tirelessly hard to provide and I for one will really miss Stuart and Alix if they were ever too leave the Bull or Charlbury....So go on, give it a bash, you never know you might enjoy yourself..

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 15:35

Angus, if Charlbury people would have ever seen the Bull as an asset should have support it much more the y have done. The petition is just a very selfish act. Why do you consider The Bull an asset if you never go there ??? Why the owner should keep it going for. They are not a social institution, are they ?? Would you ever ask someone to finance a "so called asset " a the price of compromise a livelihood ??? Are you ready to establish a private grant to support this " asset "??? If not, you do have the answer...

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 14:28 (last edited on Sun 8 Feb 2015, 15:22)

I don't see this as a petition. Nobody is asking anyone else to sign up to support anything. It is a collection of voluntary, reasoned statements by people who do not want to lose (what could be, in their opinion) one of Charlbury's most attractive assets, or to voice their opinion in support of the current proprietors' wish to sell for development.

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 14:18

I have to say this petition is more than fair. If you understand the issue then please sign. publicaccess.westoxon.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=NGPYTDRKGCW00

Sun 8 Feb 2015, 13:32

Have to say this petition is unfair. Reason, the owners of the Bull have suffered enough already. They have invested, kept high standard and effort all this time and the response of Charlbury public has been less than poor make it impossible to run the pub. Only a masochist could take this place open as it is.
Please let the Bull' owners do their best interest. They have children deserving a future after years of worries.
You should have been concerned much earlier.

Thu 5 Feb 2015, 21:53

Just a reminder that the deadline for making comments to WODC is a week from now, Thursday 12th February.

You can make a comment, for or against the application to redevelop the Bull for housing, by going to:
publicaccess.westoxon.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=NGPYTDRKGCW00

Alternatively go to the WODC planning portal:
www.westoxon.gov.uk/residents/planning-building/
and search for "Bull Charlbury".

Fri 30 Jan 2015, 12:01 (last edited on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 17:45)

I've already had my say, but I would like to say that it is not fair to put it on the market before trying to sell it as a going concern. It was a chance to take, and a risk, which in the end didn't pay off, but any future publicans are being denied the same opportunity.

Fri 30 Jan 2015, 09:22

Its not a case of getting upset with anyone, its a lot of people saying that the Bull could be a successful business again and they don't want it turned into a house with the negative impact on the centre of Charlbury
The Bull has not been marketed as a going concern, with only a planning application for change of use made, so potential purchasers are not informed or encouraged
As this thread shows many surrounding villages with smaller catchment areas have thriving pub/restaurants

Fri 30 Jan 2015, 08:39

There are at least three potential reasons why the business might not profitable now. 1) the business environment has changed (more competition, people spending less, changing demand, etc), 2) the people running the business try hard but are are making mistakes 3) the people running the business don't want it to be successful because they want to 'cash in'. Knowing Alix and Steward I have a hard time believing nr 3. I think they work their socks off and are very sad it's not working out. Not in the least because it's their own money. Nr 2 could be addressed with support/advice to a different owner. However, it is likely to be a combination, and addressing nr 1 might require investments in the business that the current owners can't afford and that reduce its price in the market. Hence a rock and a hard place. Either way, what do we all know? Getting upset with the current owners is not going to help to retain The Bull as a pub/restaurant for Charlbury. And if you know someone who is happy to buy The Bull for a good price, please get them in touch with Alix and Steward!

Thu 29 Jan 2015, 22:35

Thank you Tony for those words.

Thu 29 Jan 2015, 22:11

Alan agree totally I too have used the bull from Roy and Suzanne to present owners but feel they are taking the financial option irrespective of the effect on Charlbury and now feel I can no longer use the pub It seems wrong that someone can buy a succesful business run it in a way that makes it unviable and capitalise on thiis

Thu 29 Jan 2015, 21:13

I like many others am opposed to the proposal to change the use of The Bull to housing.
Myself, family and friends supported The Bull for many years before and since the current owners arrived. We attended the Wednesday evening pub quiz pretty much every week from before 2008 right…

Long post - click to read full text

Wed 28 Jan 2015, 20:19 (last edited on Sun 1 Feb 2015, 22:11)

Some really interesting and valid points raised here... I regularly support The Bull. In fact my husband and I had a superb tasty and freshly made (& enormous ) burger last week, just the ticket for a spontaneous supper. We have eaten some lovely meals with reasonable wines and excellent beer. However I do believe the ambience could be just that little bit more welcoming and vibrant for all regulars & visitors. I am in the hospitality industry with marketing experience and I strongly believe this pub, with some minor tweaks, could be a thriving business with huge potential servicing the residents and visitors of Charlbury. It would be a terrible loss to see it turned into another soulless residential development. Gosh, we are in the heart of The Cotswolds, a very popular destination with a direct train to London linking commuters, tourists, walkers, wedding guests, festival goers, corporate, the list is endless - it shouldn't be that difficult to attract business, especially for such an attractive, traditional Cotswold pub. There is plenty of scope for all the Charlbury public houses to run healthy businesses as each have a specific target market and role to play. I'm sure if it was for sale on the open market as a freehold pub it would be snapped up - hopefully not by Greene King!

Wed 28 Jan 2015, 15:53

Deadline for making comments to WODC.

According to the planning application notice displayed outside the Bull, the final date for comments to be submitted via the WODC website is Thursday 12th February.

The direct link is as follows:
publicaccess.westoxon.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=NGPYTDRKGCW00

Alternatively go to the WODC planning portal
www.westoxon.gov.uk/residents/planning-building/
and search for "Bull Charlbury".

Tue 27 Jan 2015, 22:29

As a regular, I was delighted to see a noticeable increase in patrons this evening, a buzz round the bar and laughter from the restaurant while enjoying my yummy supper of gravadlax, and cheesey beignets with roasted veg and herby polenta. As for portion size, I was too full for pudding.

Tue 27 Jan 2015, 17:33

Mr. Oates, I am so glad you have added your voice. It's a good argument, and my feeling is that I 'use it' when I want to. If I find that I have paid the full price for something that was clearly not a proper portion (and yes I did point it out but no-one came back to me with an explanation, apology or discount), then I might have a reason to 'not use it' next time round.
I'm sorry Dave, I think that what is happening is a real shame, but people won't use the pub just because they are being prompted to feel that they ought to.

Tue 27 Jan 2015, 16:12

Having been away all last week and only just getting into the thread, I am naturally opposed to the planning application as I believe it would be a devastating loss to the town if the Bull should close. However, as a regular user of the pub (as well as The Rose and Crown), I agree whole heartedly with Glenna - all those people that are up in arms, use it!! It isn't just a food pub. Stuart and Alex keep good beers, a good range of wines and even their crisps are tasty! Charlbury needs to keep it's businesses afloat and in the 20+ years I have lived here, I have watched sadly as those businesses dwindled away. Whether the Bull is run by the current owners or someone completely different, nothing will change if Charlbury residents don't support them

Sat 24 Jan 2015, 14:42

I'll probably add to this when I've read the rest of the posts etc but....

For those who might want 'planning references', the principle of the loss of the pub I think should be assessed against Policies TLC12 (Protection of Existing Community Services & Facilities) and Policy E6 (Change of Use of Existing Employment Sites) of the 2011 Local Plan - The Bull must surely count as an 'employment site'. Those policies are expected to be replaced by Policies CP11 and CP15 in the 2012 Draft Local Plan, which I assume WODC are now using also. All are accessible on the WODC website.

Para 70 of the National Planning Policy Framework is also relevant ?" google NPPF ?" not least the advice that planning decisions should "guard against the unnecessary loss of valued facilities and services" - which includes pubs.

Sat 24 Jan 2015, 09:57

Hi Liz, to make it as easy as possible for us all to submit objections, please could you post (here, and in the leaflet you mentioned) examples of how to word objections? I just took another look at the Planning Portal and saw that objections can include but are not limited to:
Overlooking/loss of privacy
Loss of light or overshadowing
Parking
Highway safety
Traffic
Noise
Effect on listed building and conservation area
Layout and density of building
Design, appearance and materials
Government policy
Disabled persons' access
Proposals in the Development Plan
Previous planning decisions (including appeal decisions)
Nature conservation

Some of these, such as Government Policy and what's in the Charlbury Development Plan wouldn't be at most of our fingertips! Some guidance would be useful. Thanks.

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 18:09 (last edited on Fri 23 Jan 2015, 19:18)

Thanks Liz, that's all really good information especially how to compose a good objection letter and also about final date to do it by as I had read it was 4 Feb somewhere.
The crossroads there have always been known as 'Bull Corner' which will no longer be relevant if the 'Bull Inn' no longer exists. I hope it can be saved as Charlbury would not be the same without this historic Inn at centre of the town.

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 16:52 (last edited on Fri 23 Jan 2015, 17:36)

I've been away for a few days so I have only just caught up with this thread. It's very clear people don't want to see the Bull disappear. I won't comment on the "right" marketing strategy - that is a matter for the owners in my opinion. But I can advise on planning, and if people want to raise objections to the application, then it is important to stick to valid reasons and these can be found if you go to the government Planning Portal www.planningportal.gov.uk/general/faq/faqapplyprocess. Andrew has also rightly pointed to WODC's Policy TLC12 - Protection of Existing Community Services and Facilities. In response to a question raised by Simon, the date by which any comments need to be received has not yet been published, but it won't be before the end of February as the next planning meeting it could go to will be early March. It will go to a meeting (unless turned down by the officers prior to that) as I will request that. Regarding the question of how we get information out to people who might not see this Forum, I will put something in my next leaflet, which I intend to get out in about 10 days' time. If the Bull were to close it would significantly alter the centre of the town so it is only right that everyone has a chance to have their say.

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 14:33 (last edited on Fri 23 Jan 2015, 14:44)

Thanks Charlie. Completely agree. As it happens, I was thinking of starting a new discussion thread with ideas to help promote the Bull. I'll do that - please add more! New thread is now here: forum.charlbury.info/thread/2828

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 13:58

Andrew Chapman has put it exactly as I see it, I have objected to the application. On doing so I must admit to feeling very saddened both for the landlords and that things have got this far. I do feel things could be turned around, we ate there on Sunday having been turned away from four other pubs in the area they were fully booked (we were out and about but ended up travelling back at Charlbury) clearly there is demand out there. Without wanting to sound like Alex Polizzi perhaps a drop-box with constructive thoughts/ ideas which would bring you more often through their doors. No doubt this process/ feed has left them feeling somewhat ostracised which is not going to help anyone. Perhaps I'm patronising the landlords as I'm sure they've tried all sort of things previously but I think it's in everyone interest to try to help them, if they actually want to be helped.

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 08:49

Thanks Glena. We've also been regular users over many many years, decreasingly. I stick by my point also.

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 00:16

Sorry Rosemary---not really an apology---just a misunderstanding. Didn't mean 'use it or lose it' to be seen as patronising---but I still stick by that phrase.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 21:16

Thank you Glena and John for your apologies. Andrew Chapman has pointed out the relevant clauses in the Local Plan that we need to concentrate on. If it can be shown that the people of Charlbury really do care about the historical significance, the building, the employment potential and the social relevance, then I would hope that the Council would act in favour of a denial.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 19:55 (last edited on Thu 22 Jan 2015, 20:39)

(Re Andrew Chapman's posting at 16:45 today)

Well if this is true and not a selective policy (for reasons which are not obvious to me) why in the past have WODC blocked the opening of new businesses like new cooked food retail outlets, or change of use from residential to business?
So is there a strategy for Charlbury town centre?
Perhaps it should be developed under the local plan?
What type of retail outlets do people want and are willing to patronise?

In many cases local businesses cannot compete on price, so need to major on quality and service or other factors people are prepared to pay a premium for.
Many of us now tend to shop on the WEB as it provides us with convenience, choice and great prices. For this reason and that Oxford is not car friendly personally I haven't ventured into the city for years to shop.
Town centers up and down the country are under threat which is why Mary Portas made many recommendations to make them more attractive and economically viable. I would say due its size Charlbury has even greater challenges unless it can attract shoppers from elsewhere so it needs to be able to provide those sort of facilities and mix of shops that will stimulate such a situation. Unfortunately its somewhat a catch 22 situation in that a business will not invest or open if they don't think customers will come and likewise without the variety and and facilities why would you come to Charlbury from outlying villages to shop and eat. So what does Charlbury want to be famous for like other small towns?

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 18:35

I have always enjoyed the food I have had at the Bull. If it became a pub like the Plough at Kingham then it really would be too expensive ! I did not mean to sound patronising Rosemary, when I said use it or lose it and I wasn't only referring using it to eat. People could just drop in and have a drink more often, especially midweek.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 17:10

Have the present owners tried selling it as a going concern? It's not apparent in the planning submission.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 17:04

True, it also states

Proposals which would result in the loss of a shop and/or post office serving the local community will not be permitted unless:
a) the existing use is not viable; or
b) there is no demonstrable loss to the range of goods and services available within or adjoining the settlement.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 17:02

(Re Andrew Chapman's posting at 16:45 today)

Thank you Andrew. this is the posting I've been waiting for. I think it hits all the nails on the head and will be very helpful in informing the comments I'll make to WODC.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 16:45

OK, I know little of planning, but there are very clear grounds in local planning policy for objecting to this. West Oxfordshire has guidance online (http://www.westoxon.gov.uk/have-your-say-links/planning-consultations/). The list of 'material planning considerations' includes: 'conservation of buildings' and 'character of the area'. Perhaps the fact that an inn has been here…

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Thu 22 Jan 2015, 16:37

Can anyone tell me the final date for sending comments on this application to WODC? Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place but I can't find the information on their website.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 16:11

Good point Mark. The food is good quality and well priced!
Rosemary, I apologise if I sound condescending. I worry that people are looking at this situation back to front. There are no different owners of the Bull who will miraculously turn things around. Therefore, according to planning policy, if the owners can demonstrate that they have done all they can, that there are alternative provisions for hotel, meals, pub etc and that they can essentially prove that it doesn't have enough customers to keep it viable (their bank balance would be proof enough I'd have said) then they are candidates for change of use!
The only thing, which I have stated previously, is if it's refused because it hasn't been marketed?
You may not like it, but this is planning policy! The only way, other than someone else taking it over is if it can be shown to be a viable business.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 13:48 (last edited on Thu 22 Jan 2015, 13:54)

I'm genuinely baffled by all these people complaining about the food, to the point where I almost feel that we can't be talking about the same pub. I have had lots of good meals in recent months: blade of beef in a port sauce, the chicken ballottine, pheasant, good risottos, liver and bacon, gravadlax, and so on. I'm certainly surprised to hear people asserting that the last owners did better meals, which was not my experience at all, nice people though they were. On a factual level, I don't think it's true either that there has been a merry-go-round of contract chefs. It's reasonably clear that there are those who have set their face against the food on offer at the Bull, which of course they are entitled to do. All I can say is that I have found it consistently reliable and good - so I'd urge anyway who hasn't been recently to try it and decide for themselves. I glanced at Tripadvisor out of interest, and while there are certainly some dissenting voices, by and large people there agree with me, and the Bull gets four out of five.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 13:25

John Mortimer, just a quick line here. You have pointed out that the previous owners were caterers in their own right. Surely this is the reason for its downturn. The Bull I understand has survived using contract chefs who 'move around' and in turn that mitigates against a regular and steady increase in customer support, and reputation.
No-one wanted the pub to fail, but if it has, it is not down to the public. There are many people who are disappointed that the pub is not thriving, so they go elsewhere, and the point here is that they DO go elsewhere. It is a free choice. To say use it or lose is patronising and off the point.
The point is that a bad workman blames his tools, and in this instance, we the public are being blamed, which is ludicrous.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 12:34

Hence why there is a need for people to use it NOW! Look at it this way, if they have a good stable clientele, they can then afford an excellent chef, who could then turn the situation around. Chefs, by their very nature are fairly impermanent as they move up from one pay grade to another. If they are successful, they will probably move on relatively quickly to newer pastures with higher wages. Everyone who refers to the previous owners seem to forget that the chef was also the owner! Therefore having a vested interest in remaining! Without the income how can you afford a top chef?
I therefore repeat, it is down to the people of Charlbury to support the Bull now, or they will only have themselves to blame!

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 12:26

Thanks for clarification John
I have to admit my area of expertise is business not planning!
I just think it is wrong to allow change of use for a business that was viable & has every chance of being viable in the future, particularly with the effect that will have on the centre of Charlbury

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 12:18

I do apologise Tony, I meant the sale of pubs Inns etc is a saturated market, there are a great deal of businesses on the market.
If Alex and Stuart can demonstrate that they have not reduced their service to the community and they have done what they can within their financial and commercial abilities the argument still doesn't stand up if no one is willing to buy the Bull as a going concern. Regardless of whether you or anyone else think they can run it better, they are the owners and planning policy is met!

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 12:09

John I don't think our views are widely different but some comments
Charlbury is not a saturated market for a pub/restaurant as this thread has demonstrated
Whilst everyone, including myself likes Alex & Stuart & has sympathy for them it is difficult to use a business that does not provide the same value as The Crown at Enstone & other local pub/restaurants that Charlbury people currently use
I think it perfectly justified to object to the proposal on the grounds that there is strong evidence that the Bull is viable as a business if run correctly, and that it would have a significant negative impact on the town if converted into a house

I urge everyone who thinks the same to use this link to register their objection
publicaccess.westoxon.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=NGPYTDRKGCW00
I think you'll need to cut & paste rather than click

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 11:39

Tony, I do not disagree with you with regards to the marketing of the Bull Inn. As I have already stated previously in this thread, this will probably be the only grounds for refusal. The problem arrises when, in a saturated market, where brewery's offer "try before you buy" and hundreds of pubs and Inns are closing per month, The Bull, a substantial property which would carry a substantial price tag (purely from a bricks and mortar point of view), would have to find a buyer, within the prescribed marketing time limit set by the planning dept, who is able to see past the reducing trade, pay the market value and then invest more to turn things around, with no guarantees of a return!
I think that is a big ask! And if a buyer is not found, but the present owners have done what is required? The change of use will be granted.
That seems like a very risky strategy. If it's not supported now, are you willing to leave it to fate?
All the arguments expressed, with the exception of marketing the Bull are irrelevant in terms of planning policy! As far as I can tell, the building is not going to be torn down, therefore, the character and visual impact will not change.
With regards to selling the barn, that is an option the owners of the Bull can look at, however, it is not a decision the planning dept can force on them!

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 09:54

John, I disagree with your logic on several counts
Many people, myself included, have bought non profitable businesses because they can see the potential to turn them round.
The position with new owners is not irrelevant if the Bull is potentially a viable business, which it was and this thread suggests it can be again, and this should be taken into account by the planners
Its potential market value is only applicable if the planners grant change of use, which I believe is unlikely in the current circumstances
Maximising the return for the present owners without change of use for the business by selling the Barn separately is not insurmountable

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 09:41

Unfortunately Andrew, what you propose would require a large investment in the business which is obviously the last thing the present owners would be prepared to do, considering situation.
The argument of new owners turning it around is, at present, irrelevant.
If the barn was sold, then accommodation would have to be found in the Bull for the owners, therefore reducing capacity, and therefore potential earnings-not a viable option in my opinion.
If they were to put it on the market, who would buy it if it is not profitable? Certainly when you consider it's potential market value!

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 09:35

Well said Andrew, I am stunned by the delusional comments of John & Mark that suggest someone can buy a successful business, fail to run it effectively and then capitalise by closing it down and turning into residential.
This thread has made it plain that a large number of people do not use the Bull because the quality of the food does not match its price and they therefore go out of Charlbury to surrounding villages where they do get the quality to match the price.
It is clear that there is significant demand for a pub/restaurant that matches price & quality & as such there is no justification for saying the Bull is not a viable business

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 09:16

Surely the point of Rosemary and others is that they have been disappointed by the Bull in recent times, for whatever reason - you can't expect people to support a service which they don't feel is good enough. I feel enormously for Alix and Stuart, as it's a hard business…

Long post - click to read full text

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 08:56

If you acknowledge it is failing Rosemary, but not prepared to support it, it's fate is sealed! You have no second chances.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 08:54

Well said Mark!
Clearly, after many have acknowledged that the centre of Charlbury is loosing retailers left right and centre, they haven't learnt their lesson and still don't support the local tradespeople.
A romantic notion of having a wonderful bustling centre is no defence against the hard facts that businesses are unable to survive!
Those who pass the responsibility for supporting the town centre to the, as yet, unknown people who's houses have yet to be built are clearly delusional.
On another note, after reading the objection letters submitted, one or two state that they actively avoid the Bull in favour of out of town pubs (some of which are brewery owned, Great Tew being one) but then lament the possible change of use of the Bull?
Are these letters of objection or support?

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 08:40

Use it or lose it? It's a strange argument to use in favour of a failed business. If there was more confidence in it, it would be used more.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 07:32

Well said Mark - common practical sense instead of emotional pie in the sky.

Thu 22 Jan 2015, 06:57

I am stunned by some of delusional comments on this thread. To choose a few: (1) the Bull will be kept going by 'walkers', clearly the view of a Sunday lunchtime-only visitor. I didn't see many walkers in there last night, but then I didn't see many of the people…

Long post - click to read full text

Wed 21 Jan 2015, 22:12 (last edited on Wed 21 Jan 2015, 22:52)

Kind of proves the point doesn't it Robert, that you feel you must warn people of the planning application?! Surely, as the Bull Inn is so popular with local people, the "centre" of Charlbury, that there would be no need to warn the locals? The planning application must be displayed for a prescribed period of time to allow for such an eventuality? Unless, people don't know about it because they don't use it?
Face facts, you may be able to prevent this planning application, maybe because it hasn't been marketed? However, the property would have a very substantial market value, well in excess of a million pounds! I do think a community ownership scheme would bulk at that price?
If a potential buyer does not come forward, then what? Another application which ticks all the boxes?
In short, the owners cannot be forced to sell below the market value, leaving really only one outcome.
unless people USE these facilities regularly and therefore show that it is profitable and therefore a viable going concern which is really the only way to prevent this.
The local people only have one chance to prevent this from happening and that is to use it or it will be the people of Charlbury who are to blame for the loss of the Bull!

Wed 21 Jan 2015, 21:16

The link that Sally Fenn kindly posted on 20th January takes you straight to this planning application on the WODC site and when you arrive you can click on Documents to see previous comments [14 so far] and Comments to express your own opinion.

I think we should all send this link to as many local contacts as possible who may be unaware of what is going on and alert them to this opportunity to make their voice heard before its too late.

Wed 21 Jan 2015, 20:17

After four hundred years of serving the community as an Inn what possible justification can there be to convert The Bull into a private house. I hope that Charlbury will not allow one of the most important buildings and buisnesses in the most prominent part of town to be degraded. If you feel strongly please write and object to the council.

Wed 21 Jan 2015, 20:15

So sorry to read this my granny was born in The Bull in 1914 and in 2012 we said our final goodbyes to her there, where they put on an excellent spread. Over the years we've eaten there several times and never been disappointed.
It would be a great shame to see it go.

Wed 21 Jan 2015, 19:45 (last edited on Wed 21 Jan 2015, 19:45)

My family and I have quite literally only just moved to Charlbury but to hear that the Bull Inn is now in jeopardy is bitterly dissappointing.

We stayed at the Bull Inn on two separate occassions when evaluating whether Charlbury was the perfect place to start the next phase of…

Long post - click to read full text

Wed 21 Jan 2015, 17:28

I totally agree with Bruce.
When I moved to Charlbury 10 years ago The Bull was always packed because there was an excellent chef and prices were competitive.
The chef "moved on" and numerous chefs followed but were not of the same calibre and as a result, customer numbers reduced and price increases followed all too frequently in an attempt to increase turnover and profit; during a period when the country was in recession.
As nice as the present owners are, they clearly do not have the experience to make The Bull a successful business and should not be allowed to benefit from the change of use and sale of this important town facility.
Pubs in Finstock, Hailey, Chadlington and Church Enstone are thriving and with the right owners, The Bull could be the same.

Wed 21 Jan 2015, 17:25

As an aside, the shocking thing is that under current planning rules the pub could become a Tesco without the need for any planning permission whatsoever (though in this instance I suspect listed building consent would be needed for internal alterations). Please bear this in mind when raising this with local politicians.

Wed 21 Jan 2015, 15:25

I trust everyone is using the link on sally fenn's post to register their objection

Wed 21 Jan 2015, 15:13

I understand that the owners of the Bull have said that they are unable to make a profit to continue it as a pub. I can only comment as a customer in the past and have found their prices far too expensive and limited in choice. It misses the market of the pop in guest looking for a sunday roast along with bar meals for the walkers that visit the town. Pub meal classics are what are required, with a few specials just prepared well and at a reasonable price. I'd assume that this would then attract many a person who travels away from the town to go out for a meal. It was a popular pub/restaurant once and I struggle to see much has changed since then. I hope it remains a pub as The Bull has been part of Charlbury Town's identity for many years and once gone there will be no getting it back.

Wed 21 Jan 2015, 12:21

Dont forget Charlbury is the only town/village in Oxfordshire that has the status of Walkers are Welcome

Wed 21 Jan 2015, 11:56

If anyone has had the time to research the various links and has drafted a set of words that are likely to persuade the Planning Officers and Councillors not to grant this planning permission, please could they post their ideas here? I particularly like Tony Morgan's and Charlie Clews'words, and I set some of mine at the end. Any improvements to these words would be most welcome:

The Bull is a landmark building, [...]a key reference point at the top the main street of Charlbury and right at the heart of the centre of town;

The previous but one owners ran a very successful business;

Their is no 'realistic' [established?] competition in Charlbury to a pub/restaurant;

Many smaller villages around Charlbury support a successful pub/restaurant business;

With the imminent start of the Community Centre build more people will be coming into Charlbury;

Furthermore, with Charlbury now on the national cycle network, more trains planned to arrive in Charlbury with railway electrification in a couple of years and an end to the recession, there is a realistic prospect of increased demand for a pub and restaurant business in Charlbury.

Bearing in mind the above I will object to the application as it based upon the short term considerations that will affect the heritage look, feel, and economic and commercial future of a vibrant Cotswold town in the much longer term.

Tue 20 Jan 2015, 18:34

Try this link, Robert
publicaccess.westoxon.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=NGPYTDRKGCW00

Tue 20 Jan 2015, 18:08 (last edited on Wed 21 Jan 2015, 10:57)

I agree with Tony Morgan and Charlie Clews....we shouldn't let this happen to what used to be the best pub in Charlbury and has been one for 100's of years. Charlbury would die a bit if this ancient pub in the very centre of its community was turned into private accommodation.

I couldn't find the application on the WestOxon website.....a link would be much appreciated.

Bring back Bill and Maggie I say !

Tue 20 Jan 2015, 09:49

We enjoy going to the Bull, we don't go very often as with 4 kids its not a cheap experience, but have never been disappointed after a meal and a few beers. Its good knowing there is a decent pub with food within walking distance for the times when we need to fill our bellies and get out locally.

I went to school with a lady called Dale Ingram who is now MD of Planning for Pubs Ltd. I believe she has helped quite a number of pubs with ideas and communities to get things moving and keep pubs running. I dropped her a line to see if there are some resources available that may be helpful to everyone.

Tue 20 Jan 2015, 00:50

As one of the most regular regulars to the Bull I totally agree with Jean and Mark---use it or lose it.

Mon 19 Jan 2015, 15:06 (last edited on Thu 22 Jan 2015, 08:17)

I agree with Tony. We have all seen the pub change gradually since the last but one owners left. They had a thriving business, and nothing has happened to the numbers of people who like to eat out in this area. I think one problem is that the pub is being treated as 'the local' whereas people used to come from miles away when the reputation was at its peak. We attempted to get a meal out without booking a couple of nights ago, and having tried two of the best local pubs in the area, came home disappointed as they were both full and could not accommodate even two more people.
The 'not viable' argument is weak.

Mon 19 Jan 2015, 14:31

I think the business case for opposing this application is as follows

The previous but one owners ran a very successful business
Their is no 'realistic' competition in Charlbury to a pub/restaurant
Many smaller villages around Charlbury support a successful pub/restaurant business
With the imminent start of the Community Centre build more people will be coming into Charlbury

On this basis I believe the Bull should be marketed as a going concern possibly with the Barn being sold separately to provide additional funds for the current owners

Mon 19 Jan 2015, 14:05

The Bull is a landmark building, I believe it to be a key reference point at the top the main street of Charlbury and right at the heart of the centre of town. On all sides it is surrounded by public/ commercial properties (the Corner House, the Rose, Cotswold Frames, Fairfax and Art Gallery etc) and from every approach it is a vital component of what can be perceived as the central core to Charlbury. Reading the planning documents you can only have every sympathy with the owners precarious business position but given its key location, even if another landlord cannot be found, losing this key commercial premises to residential would irreversibly dilute what we should surely try to preserve as the centre of town.

Mon 19 Jan 2015, 08:26

Although I have moved away from Charlbury I have eaten at the Bull from time to time and share the dismay of others.

With the Bell at the mercy of asset-stripping pubco Greene King I was more concerned at the possibility of predatory developers trying to shut that historic inn. Having read through the paperwork this seems to be a speculative and rather weak application. With Charlbury's transport connections and location there is plenty of market for a pub serving good food. I am not going to publicise grounds for objection here but there are plenty, not least that the 'not viable' case has not been made.

CAMRA's national Pubs Matter website www.pubsmatter.org.uk contains space for people to discuss attempts by developers and pubcos to shut these community assets.

Mon 19 Jan 2015, 08:22

Put it up for sale: fantastic ambience in a great location with three B&B rooms and a separate house for the owners or to let. What's not to like? The right person/people must be out there waiting... It would be outrageous to sell it off for housing without even trying.

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 23:20

Those of us who have lived here for long enough to remember the White Hart will remember the 'asset stripping' that took place there. The pub was viable, but was allowed to be turned into private dwellings, making a fortune for the owners and a loss to the community of a great pub. Here we go again!

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 20:32

Guardian article with some useful links/tips here:

www.theguardian.com/social-enterprise-network/2012/may/04/best-bits-cooperative-pubs

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 20:14

Might see the "Golden Arches" in Town yet!!!

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 19:27

There is also a local example at Northmoor where the community has taken over the pub.

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 19:24

Thanks Liz, this is very useful. I very much want the Bull to continue as a pub. The link below
mycommunityrights.org.uk/case-study/right-to-bid/ gives a case study of a pub in Bath which became part of a community ownership scheme. Very interesting!

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 19:19

This is a really disappointing development. Like Mark, I enjoy the food and the welcome at the Bull very much. Alix and Stuart have brought a lot to Charlbury, and I'd be really sorry to see them go. I only wish there were a proper cider on offer (as there is at the Tite and the Plough) to enjoy with the excellent food!

If regrettably they don't believe they can continue, though, I don't think we (or, more to the point, WODC) can conclude there's no realistic hope of running a pub on the site. Chadlington (population 820), Finstock (700), Ramsden (300), and Great Tew (150!) each support thriving food-driven pubs. Kingham (970) has two plus a hotel-restaurant. Charlbury has challenges that some of these may not have, yes, but opportunities too; and it may well be that another 'recipe' might prove more successful. Personally I'd far rather have the Bull than the Kingham Plough on my doorstep, but who's to say my tastes are the most commercially lucrative?

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 17:44

A couple of things: First of all for those interested there is a useful website www.plannignportal.gov.uk. This gives you all you need to know about planning applications, how to object etc. Secondly, I'd like to flag up the Community Right to Bid. This website will tell you all you need to know about that. mycommunityrights.org.uk/community-right-to-bid/. If a large number of people want the Bull to continue to be a pub then this could be a way forward.

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 17:39

I would be very sad also because that's where I started my working life again after my family many years ago under Dennis Bennett. I hope all can be resolved for the present owners as they must be sad also.

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 17:24

Having read the planning application, it seems to me that the Bull owners are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The Bull does not currently provide enough income to make it a viable business, and selling it going concern would (in part because if this) not return anything near the investment they made in 2008. I think this is a classic 'use it loose it' scenario. If the people of Charlbury want to keep The Bull, and other Charlbury businesses, we all need to spend more money there. My hope is that, with the economic outlook improving, this will indeed happen. I would be very sad to see The Bull go, as we've over the years found it a reliable and pleasant place for a meal (both pub and restaurant) and a drink.

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 17:16

True! I suspect that Malcolm Biranek's post is most likely to be the real reason for the changes though.If the business can't survive they may have no alternative.

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 16:52

Pearl - years ago there were more manual and agricultural workers needing beer, and no TV of an evening to provide entertainment.

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 15:52 (last edited on Sun 18 Jan 2015, 15:56)

I don't see access being a problem some properties already have this situation, we do on Market Street we take a chance each time we leave our driveway with the speed of cars! and not being able to see much of a distance from our driveway at least on Browns lane you can see for some distance a car coming out from the Bulls car park . Since we moved here not one car has ever let us exit our driveway knowing we are unable to easily see oncoming speeding cars.

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 15:09

Access is probably the biggest problem with this application as it is a small compact site in central Charlbury leading on to a narrow one way street.

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 15:04 (last edited on Sun 18 Jan 2015, 15:05)

Years ago there were more Pubs and less residents than there are now.
( the Rooks Nest, The Marlborough Arms, The White Hart name some.)

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 14:47

One local pub needs a village with 2,000 residents. We have 2,800 - and four pubs. Herein lies the problem.

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 13:41

If the present owners do not feel they want to continue with the business then the simple answer is to put it on the market as a going concern, as I believe that Charlbury can support a good pub/restaraunt.
Presumably the barn behind could be sold seperately to provide the required return without trying to convert the pub into a house with the impact that will have on the centre of Charlbury

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 10:41 (last edited on Sun 18 Jan 2015, 10:51)

Much of the current problems stem from the governments decision to implement the 1989 beer orders. They were warned repeatedly that if they were implemented it would make many licensed premises unviable. This decision together with the plight of the economy, business rates and duty has decimated the pub industry and rural landlords have been particularly badly affected. Approximately 20,000 pubs have been lost since the introduction of the legislation. Many pubs are only viable by supplementing alcohol sales with food and gaming machine takings.
Given the size of Charlbury I've always been surprised that it could sustain such a large number of licensed premises so personally I'm not surprised by the current situation. Until local and to a lesser extent national governments of all political persuasions actually stop treating small businesses as a cash cow and help to stimulate and sustain the rural economy its unlikely the situation will improve anytime soon

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 09:56

As an infrequent user of the Bull (and the other pubs in town) and having read the planning statements I note how the business has suffered a downturn in profits since it was purchased in 2008, and I conclude that this is because of the recession. Now with Charlbury firmly (and recently) established on the National Cycle Network, and expansion of rail services proposed when the GW line is electrified (more trains terminating in Charlbury rather than Oxford)... but just look at how the station car park is regularly full now (etc etc) as evidence of the economy picking up.

I for one would be very unhappy to see the place close; an understandable reaction to a short term problem. However if the business could keep going for another twelve to eighteen months then there is the strong possibility of a turnaround in fortunes... we in Charlbury help this by frequenting the Bull more.

One of the best features of the Bull is that the Bull offers both pub and restaurant sit-down meals reliably - a reliability that I feel is not proven with the other establishments - some recent additions - noted in the application.

I think some of my comments stem from having visited the White Hart for the first time on its last evening trading!

Sun 18 Jan 2015, 09:41

Charlbury is not at the mercy of Greene King. The Rose & Crown has won numerous CAMRA awards.

The Bell seems to be on the up again (it couldn't have gone down much further!)though it's early days yet for the new operators.

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 21:45

The WODC Planning Dept web-site is up and running again thank goodness, so all documents are available to view.

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 17:46

It looks like the WODC planning site is temporarily down.

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 17:43 (last edited on Sat 17 Jan 2015, 17:43)

I have the same problem as Andrew in terms of accessing the planning applications. The website links seem to be down.

What is more puzzling is that when I look at the WODC map of current planning applications (accessible by searching from My West Oxfordshire & asking for 25 applications within a mile), the website works but the application for The Bull does not show up at all.

Has the planning application been withdrawn? Does anybody know?

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 17:37

I can not get on to the WODC planning web-site either from the links on the front page of this charlbury.info site, nor from WODC's own home page.
All lead to a

IDOX Public Access
Page not found

error.

I want to find the details but it seems to be a no-go area!

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 17:19 (last edited on Sat 17 Jan 2015, 17:19)

The strongest argument the people of Charlbury could voice about the future of the Bull would be to go there, in huge numbers, drink the beer, eat the meals, and crowd round the bar. And to do that on Tuesday evenings in February, as well as on Bank Holiday Sundays. I speak as a regular who would be devastated to see the Bull go, but who can see that Alex and Stewart work hugely hard and things are not easy. And I give due warning that I will get very cross indeed if I find folk who never darken the Bull's doors complaining that it is a valuable community resource that we can't afford to lose - or implying that the current food and welcome is anything less than excellent.

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 17:18

Agree with Liz. Definitely a market here for really good food. Shame always to have to go outside Charlbury to get this. I think the right mix of great quality food/friendly pub could work and such a loss for the future of the town to have yet another 'amenity' gone. Worth protesting against these plans. Though also aporeciate it must be a very tough business to be in and owners have tried their best.

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 17:08

If anyone would like to understand about valid grounds for objection to any planning application (not specifically this one) then please get in touch - I will be away for most of next week but will be picking up e mails. lizleffman@clothesource.net

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 16:55

I agree with Suzi - who can suggest strong arguments that are actually effective?

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 16:43

If The Bull were to become residential premises it would run counter to the proposals for the town centre being developed by those in Charlbury Neighbourhood Forum. A successful pub/ restaurant needs consistenyly a warm welcome and high quality food. I'm sure that new owners with the right skills and attitude could succeed.

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 13:06

The full reasons are given by their agents on the West Oxon planning site

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 11:08 (last edited on Sat 17 Jan 2015, 11:09)

Use it or lose it?

Sat 17 Jan 2015, 10:18

It seems odd that there are proposals to extend the size of Charlbury and increase its population if the very core of the commercial part of the town is being eroded.

Fri 16 Jan 2015, 23:18

The deadline for objections appears to be 4 feb, not long to go. Can someone please advise on the most appropriate grounds we can object to this application as I know from past experience that only certain objections can taken into account. I'm actually shocked by this application as I see The Bull as one of the most stable eateries in Charlbury, unlike The Bell which seems to change management every few years.

Fri 16 Jan 2015, 23:09

That would be good news for The Plough in Finstock. Really good food, cooked on the premises, and a lovely walk if you are so inclined! But how extraordinary that our town cannot sustain one good eating place with a proper kitchen. What's wrong?

Fri 16 Jan 2015, 18:05

I was dismayed to see that the owners of the Bull have put in for planning permission to turn it into 3 dwellings. If granted it would leave only the Bell for pub food and Charlbury at the mercy of Green King.