Back to the Subject of Safer Driving in Charlbury (Debate)

Fri 5 Dec 2008, 07:18

Roger, I don't know what the US backing for Israel has to do with the changes in America; and that's certainly something that isn't going to change. BTW, the UK also backs Israel if you look at your foreign policy.

Although I personally don't support Israel's foreign policy or treatment of the Palestinian people, I certainly take exception to the gleeful manner in which some Europeans are so quick to attack Israel's right to exist.

There's too much of an echo from the past in it.

Wed 3 Dec 2008, 16:28

Well again Igor we can only wait and see what happens with the man in the white house from January onwards with that one ,hopefully for a start Israel will stop being backed by your country and world peace will ensue and world dominance will cease.God bless america.Happy new year.

Wed 3 Dec 2008, 15:57

Hey, and maybe if we all wish really hard, war and poverty will go away too.
Certainly wouldn't want to have to actually DO SOMETHING.

Re: David's wishful thinking

Wed 3 Dec 2008, 15:50

Roger, you appear to have some regional fixation. A gas guzzling 4X4 gets poor mileage and pollutes the air and is more likely to kill when it crashes no matter where it's being driven. And again, I hate toinform you that I am not my nationality's keeper. Although I have to say since November 4th, I'm quite proud to be American.

Wed 3 Dec 2008, 14:04

Well said David ,but i am told i am wrong to speak out as i do,but it will not stop me.

Wed 3 Dec 2008, 10:42

Am I the only person who thinks this whole argument is getting increasingly dull? The fact is that as far as I am aware, there have only been 2 serious accidents in Charlbury in the last several years, one of which was a horrible and tragic accident (but not due to speed) and one of which was caused by a drunken driver. I am not condoning bad driving but I am not sure this is the massive issue in Charlbury that Igor claims it is

Tue 2 Dec 2008, 13:33

Oh igor ,i thought you wanted some sort of discussion about things you wrote sorry .If i had of known that you were just sounding off i would not have intervened.Anyway how can you say about 4x4's using too much petrol when the country you originate from uses more fuel in one day than i would use in a week.Have a nice day now.

Tue 2 Dec 2008, 12:04

"Igor it just seems that anyone that drives a two ton slab of steel will not be able to satisfy you."

Nonsense; it's not drivers that I detest, it's bad drivers.

"Firstly there is a problem,there has been a problem ever since the car was invented."

So there's nothing to be done about?
It's not the invention that's at fault it's the users.

"Secondly the problem will not go away,even with you having a go about people driving 4x4s."

The only problem I have with 4 x 4 is that they consume too much petrol, pollute more than other cars and when driven recklessly are more likely to kill a cyclist or pedestrian. Other than that I have no problem.

"Thirdly if all the problems with speed were sorted out with drivers in and around Charlbury you would still not be happy."

What makes you think this issue has anything to do with my being happy?

The issue I consistently address is one of life threatening, criminal negligence; no less.

"Fourthly i do not have a problem with you or any foreigner as you put it pointing anything out in Charlbury or anywhere else."

Good.
"Lastly i wish some outsiders would comment on here as it gets bloody boring having to keep answering all these negative comments that you keep posting about Charlbury peoples driving ."

Why do you feel the need to answer my complaints about bad drivers in Charlbury? My comments aren't negative, what I'm pointing out (i.e. speeding and dangerous driving) is negative.

Tue 25 Nov 2008, 16:08

Igor it just seems that anyone that drives a two ton slab of steel will not be able to satisfy you.The suggestions that you have put forward are whats needed not having a go at anyone who you think does not recognise that there is a problem .
Firstly there is a problem,there has been a problem ever since the car was invented.
Secondly the problem will not go away,even with you having a go about people driving 4x4s.
Thirdly if all the problems with speed were sorted out with drivers in and around Charlbury you would still not be happy.
Fourthly i do not have a problem with you or any foreigner as you put it pointing anything out in Charlbury or anywhere else.
Lastly i wish some outsiders would comment on here as it gets bloody boring having to keep answering all these negative comments that you keep posting about Charlbury peoples driving .

Tue 25 Nov 2008, 06:48

Roger et al: who exactly are these other minority 'bad' drivers who cause accidents, speed, drive recklesly and give all us 'good' drivers a bad rep? Where do they come from?

If the responsibility doesn't lie with 'us' who does it lie with?

I observe this 'minority' of bad drivers every other day when I use the roads in and around Charlbury. Why shouldn't I point out their dangerous behaviour and complain when it clearly isn't an isolated incident here or there but an overall attitude toward driving?

I think there's a hell of a lot of ducking of responsibility on this forum and much of the condescension and overt antagonism I get sounds allot like guilty self-justification to me.

If you don't like problems pointed out to you in Charlbury by foreigners (or anyone else for that matter), then why not put some effort into solving the problems, so that there's nothing to point out? Or is it easier to blame it all on the outsiders who aren't entitled to comment?

Or perhaps the consensus drifted back again to the denial that there is a problem in Charlbury in the first place?

That's also easier than solving the problem.

Sun 23 Nov 2008, 14:44

just a little story .two years ago i was driving my daughter to meet her driving instructor. on a main road i was aproaching a cross roads in a thirty mile an hour zone there were cars on both junctions so i slowed to about twenty miles an hour when all of a sudden a bmw z4 shot across in front of us. we hit it in the side a big bang the front of our car was destroyed my daughter hit her legs on the dashboard and got whiplash. i broke two toes on my left foot igot out of the car just as the lady driver of the bmw was about to drive away i opened her door and took the keys off of her.when the police arrived and did some checking this was her third offence for pulling out in front of other vehicles.we were lucky that i slowed down at the junction. she got a two hundred and fifty pound fine and was made to go on a intensive driving course which she had to pay for. if she did not attend she would go straight to court for dangerous driving.we did not sue for injuries but could have taken her to the cleaners. so think before you pull out of junctions.

Sat 22 Nov 2008, 17:38

The subject has drifted into general motoring discussion, again, so I'm moving it to the grease pit, again.

Sat 22 Nov 2008, 14:45

Igor ,i am not for one minute falling back into nationalism.It is merely that whoever does not agree with you is wrong it seems .David is quite right when he says he did not want to get actively involved ,neither do i but someone has to try to get you to understand that just like you ,we do not like to be treated as unruly yob drivers when we have done nothing to deserve it .
We all fully understand what needs to happen with the drivers that speed, just as at this time of year when drinking and driving comes to the fore .
No matter how many times this matter is debated you will still get drivers taking no notice,like the couple highlighted on the news only yesterday that were killed by a drunken driver in a Jaguar car.
The best way is to try and come up with solutions instead of keeping on at innocent local people who have done nothing to justify your angst.

Sat 22 Nov 2008, 14:39

Igor, I would guess that David feels that you are having a go at the majority of drivers who drive both carefully and safely.

You have a very good intellectual argument against a real minority of drivers, who speed excessively, drive carelessly or use mobile phones when they shouldn't.

I think you also have highlighted the need for the rail service to be sympathetic to cyclists very effectively.

Why ruin your arguments by making the majority of good drivers (often also cyclists, pedestrians and public transport users) feel guilty. I wonder whether you realise you are having this effect?

Best wishes

Chris

Sat 22 Nov 2008, 13:53

roger is right though if we went to another country and started telling them what to do we would be thrown out or put away the trouble with this country is its to soft.

you will never get people driving any better there sre always idiots on the road no matter what anyone says or does.

Sat 22 Nov 2008, 13:10

Roger, my national identity is completely irrelevant.

The laws of physics don't adjust to national boundaries or regional accents for that matter; a two ton hunk of steel traveling at 50 mph has the same impact on flesh, bone and blood here, Chipping Norton, Glasgow, Liverpool, London the US or Peking, for that matter.

If you want to debate the merits of traffic calming or road safety, I'm wide open but don't belittle your own argument by falling pack on petty nationalism. It doesn't become you.

Sat 22 Nov 2008, 10:46

Why do'nt we make Igor the minister for traffic in Charlbury ,then we would all have to obey what he says.The sad fact is Igor ,is that it is hard to take is an american telling us what we should and should not be doing in our own country.Reverse the situation and at the very least we would be run out of town in America at worst we would come under federal law and be put out of site from society.
So just ease up on the telling and lets just have suggetions PLEASE.
We are much more likely to listen if we do not have the feeling that you want to abide by your laws,and do not come back with the usual cry of what have i got against safer driving because i have nothing against it at all .Have a nice day.

Sat 22 Nov 2008, 00:02

David, if you've got a clean driving record, obey the speed limit, don't drive your large car in the middle of the road, then my complaints have nothing at all to do with you.

The question then becomes why you take such exception (to the extent of trying to have my viewpoint excluded) to my complaints regarding bad drivers?

Owning a high petrol consuming vehicle might be environmentally irresponsible but it doesn't make you a serial killer. But trying to justify the nearly 3,000 road fatalities this year as some kind of norm or trying to silence those of us who think motorists could drive more safely around here is somewhat dubious.

What are you being so defensive about?

Fri 21 Nov 2008, 17:06

An interesting point has been raised by Richard regarding getting the message out beyond this web site. Could Igor have become so good in expressing a point of view, that he is now ready for a "world tour"?

Fri 21 Nov 2008, 15:16

I swore I wasn't going to get involved but some of the comments are totally out of order.

As the driver of an "over consumptive, cumbersome vehicle", I am getting really hacked off with the sweeping generalisations of Igor. Whilst I fully agree that people should drive responsibly, I along with many other people, have a clean licence and a long no-claims bonus on my insurance. Therefore, just because I own a big car, it doesn't make me a serial killer. Stick to the facts Igor and don't tar everyone with the same brush.

Fri 21 Nov 2008, 13:18

Oh, absolutely. But that means looking beyond "Charlbury residents taking some responsibility for their resident drivers"; it means getting the message out beyond this website.

Fri 21 Nov 2008, 12:27

I don't really think it matters whether or not these types of drivers are residents of Charlbury, Chipping Norton or outer Mongolia. The point is they behave recklessly when they're on Charlbury roads be it speeding, road hogging or tail gating and it would be great if we could exercise some zero tolerance of bad driving as a community rather than trying to justify it.

Fri 21 Nov 2008, 11:18

At the risk of making vast over-generalisations, I don't think Charlbury residents are the worst offenders.

You don't see a lot of 4x4s parked on the streets of Charlbury, nor big Audis - in my experience the marque most likely to be driven in an I-own-the-road fashion. But you do see a lot converging on the station. The "over 50% were resident in the Charlbury and Chipping Norton area" (from the Slade speeding survey) is tellingly vague!

Fri 21 Nov 2008, 09:12

Charlotte, I've had a few conversations with the highway police and the local police about the dangerous drivers in Charlbury. Unfortunately their resources are limited in that they have a large area to patrol and can't afford to dedicate personnel exclusively to policing the roads in and around Charlbury. But…

Long post - click to read full text

Thu 20 Nov 2008, 20:56

Firstly in response – I also have reported speeders and tailgaters - to the police.

However, when one is in shock, from speeders – one is usually unable to always take down the registration no. in time, whislt driving

Speeders are then tailgaters – thus forcing one to drive even more carefully.

However – then with tailgaters - it’s impossible to take a reg – looking in the back mirror, etc.

Yes I agree to logging – however, there should be other easier ways to prove and log. And, thus allowing the police and courts to prosecute with clearer evidence.

Surely with cameras?

Logging a call doesn’t always deal with the case in hand at the time.

I would like to know here the police’s thoughts here.

Usually they can’t take any action and can’t prove anything until death 0r a crash is reported. The police are usually unable to attend the crash scene in time.

Witnesses also disappear.

And, so it goes on – just because people speed and tailgate with bad driving.

Thu 20 Nov 2008, 13:52

Yes Igor - you have my backing. And, to those you still don't get it. I nearly lost my mother by speeders. I'm lucky to have her alive!!!!

Thu 20 Nov 2008, 13:51

Do I detect some momentum here?
Let's keep the ball rolling, we need safer driving in Charlbury

Thu 20 Nov 2008, 12:59

I agree with both of you, on keeping this going.

Too many more lives can be destroyed and just too much aggravation to all.

If only people used their brakes and sense. It’s not that difficult. And, anyway saves on fuel and money, if the revs aren’t high. Insurance goes higher and claims get more difficult and costly. I could go on........

Speeders cause bottle necks, after then tailgating.

They make the fragile nervous

And they don’t actually get to destination that much faster.

SO WHAT’S THE POINT OF SPEEDING & KILLING.

Lastly, it allows the police to get on with their other jobs.

Don’t bother posting your ideas on the main –to those who don’t go to the grease pen. If you dare.

Carry on Igor – I do believe there are actually many more people that agree with you.

Perhaps those who do – would to comment here.

Oh, two weeks ago - and I had to pay £350 for a new clutch thanks to speeders and tailgaters.

Thu 20 Nov 2008, 11:23

Well I agree with you, Igor.
I walk around the town a lot with my children and often find that drivers are going much too fast especially on Hixet Wood/Pooles Lane where there's no pavement for much of the road. I don't see why drivers need to get defensive about this (most of us are both drivers and pedestrians anyway, surely?) It's basic common-sense that extra care should be taken where there are vulnerable road-users ie pedestrians, as well as on fast A-roads such as those mentioned on the other thread.

I think much more could be done to make Charlbury safer for those on foot - more pavements, 20mph speed-limit in the centre and a road crossing sign from Pooles Lane up to Crawborough as many children cross here each day.

Thu 20 Nov 2008, 07:55

I appreciate that Richard locked the discussion on Charlbury's speeding drivers because of the violent response to Charlotte's account, but I don't think the topic should be closed especially after Derek's detailed account of nearly being hit by another reckless driver.

If this forum is to serve any purpose for this community that it should be to highlight the reality of living in Charlbury both good and bad and hopefully improve upon those flaws by bringing attention to them. Certainly, one of the most glaring flaws of living in Charlbury is the propensity of thoughtless, endangering drivers. This has been recounted by numerous anecdote and by police record.

But the fact that we appear to have more than our fair share seems to be partly explained by the fact that there's such a violent response and vehement denial of the reality of our situation from some quarters. I have never heard such dedicated rejection of what is after all, the simple request that if you're a motorist you should check your speed and be more aware of pedestrians, cyclists and other motorists if you're driving a particularly large vehicle on these narrow roads.

It's not rocket science.

The highway police need communities to apply pressure on its residents to drive more safely. There were over 2,900 fatalities caused by motorists on the nations roads this year and a third of them (according to the police) were caused by excessive speed.

Whatever the variety of sins caused by cyclists and pedestrians they don't kill a thousand people a year just for the sake of driving fast in a nice car.

People who especially feel proud of their locality, of their community, of their abiding by the law; the work starts at home.