Music at the Bull

Fri 9 Sep 2022, 08:40

The Daily Mail one is the most random placement, non-article I’ve ever seen. Even by their standards it’s weird.

Thu 8 Sep 2022, 14:37 (last edited on Thu 8 Sep 2022, 14:37)

I think this might be the first time this forum has been quoted in the Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-11130267/Tickets-summit-featuring-Prince-Harry-Meghan-Markle-Manchester-cost-1-000-DAY.html

(As followed up by the Oxford Mail: https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/21151643.charlbury-pub-popular-david-cameron-risks-wrath-neighbour-thumping-live-music-event/)

Wed 17 Aug 2022, 18:03

There will, of course, be another outside event making some noise in the centre of Charlbury in 2022 and that will, of course, be the Street Fair on Saturday 17th September.

There is a TEN for that of course, but the event has something of a history as it's been running for as long as I've been alive (but maybe not always in quite the same form).

In any event, we do leaflet all the residents in the immediate area some time in advance, but it's such a well established thing that it's just part of the nature of the Town and we are always very grateful for people's tolerance. We do our best, but some disruption is impossible to avoid.

Wed 17 Aug 2022, 16:55

Thank you to everyone who has supported the music at the Bull. We have the wonderful Rhiannon Fitzgerald this Sunday at 4pm who was booked to do the first one before it got cancelled

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 13:10

My mother lives in nine acres close and TBH the drumming has been a PITA for years, but it wouldn't occur to us to complain about it. Fortunately she is now deaf as her dementia means she really wouldn't be able to cope with it. 

I don't remember the post you're talking about Charlie, I'll have to look at that thread later.

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 13:04

James - I love hearing that person practice their drumming! Wish they’d practice more often. Makes working from home more interesting!

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 12:11

Indeed.

It was no louder than somebody having a BBQ and playing music through speakers they’d brought outside (which they’d be entitled to do without a permit).  I heard somebody playing drums yesterday when out for a walk on Hundley Way, suggest you avoid that area on Mondays, Mark.

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 09:14 (last edited on Tue 16 Aug 2022, 09:17)

This is a farce. The number of hours per year that one might or might not hear anything is negligible. We didn’t hear anything from Wilderness this year, due to the wind direction, and the same principle applies here.

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 08:39

There was actually a news item from 2011 that was worth adding, as well as the long thread that Charlie referred to in his earlier post: https://www.charlbury.info/news/804

It seems that Mark Hofman's previous skirmish with WODC over the wording for licences for live music ended up costing us all as council taxpayers, as well as Lord and Lady Rotherwick. 

For this reason (amongst many others) I don't find any of the current story amusing -- seems more like Groundhog Day to me. 

I'm not sure there's is much point in an online petition, however, since in 2011 Mark Hofman disbelieved the existence of evidence taken by Jean Adams to the Magistrates Court in Banbury, cited as 112 signed letters, 53 signatures obtained by the Beer Festival Committee, plus the full Petition printed from the Charlbury website, and a further five letters received too late to take to Banbury.

No doubt Charlbury has changed somewhat since 2011, given recent property sales, Covid and the like. But I very much doubt that it has changed that much, especially since there is no evidence at all that the "bass thump" that Mark Hofman objected to emanated from the Bull Inn.

Given that amplified music includes all broadcast music, and we are all living with our windows open because of the dreadful heat, it's far more likely that the "thump" came from elsewhere. 

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 08:22 (last edited on Tue 16 Aug 2022, 08:23)

It’s the same as somebody being surprised they hear church bells when they live on Church St. Yeah it can be annoying if you’re not into it, but the problem is you, not them. Be thankful The Bull turn it off at a reasonable hour and don’t belt it out every fifteen minutes through the night.

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 07:24 (last edited on Tue 16 Aug 2022, 08:53)

Harriet, firstly, a post from *you* was - for me - one of the highlights of the link I quoted from 11 years ago! Glad to see that you are still surviving! Secondly, as I said in my earlier post, "If you decide to move to a place, I think you *research* that place before you move there" ... if you are seeking a "tranquil country community" (which Charlbury *never* has been, at least in the time that I have been here!), you do *not* buy a house less than 50 yards from a pub! You might simply ask "which was there first?".

Rosemary, my reaction was perhaps rather less "benevolent" than yours, for reasons I have previously stated ... but I completely agree with your conclusion.

Tue 16 Aug 2022, 06:34

Charlie I know Mark did this before, but my statement is likely to be true anywhere - music is divisive unfortunately. You'll have those who want to hear music and those who don't, and unlike Wilderness which is only 3 days a year, music outside a pub every weekend will be more upsetting in general, particularly if you're down wind of it. In a small community one side will be out numbered either vocally or numerically by the other so you'll hear less of their view. It'll be the same on other subjects as well not just the music, as I've said previously there were people who felt the TC ignored them on various subjects, they'll probably still be there. 

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 23:59

What an absolute scream. I actually can’t stop laughing.

‘A number of us have been discussing how we can best try to maintain the character of Charlbury as a tranquil country community. We have decided in the first place to set up a new group tentatively to be called the Charlbury Noise Limitation Group. The aim of the NLG will be to act as a focus for residents who are concerned about noise, so that they can make their presence known and felt.’

The Charlbury Noise Limitation Group! 
Mr Hofman, you didn’t get anywhere in 2011, and you won’t this time either.

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 22:48 (last edited on Mon 15 Aug 2022, 22:50)

Harriet, whilst I think that you are incorrect, you do raise a very interesting point. And I have been reading Forum posts from 11 years ago, particularly this one:

https://www.charlbury.info/forum/1321#9015

A lot of the points raised in that thread are certainly just as relevant today.

In order to settle this issue once and for all, may I suggest that our Listmeister be asked if we can repeat the petition exercise that was started within the above link? Yes, I know it's a pain, but so is the antagonism being shown towards (amplified!) music in Charlbury, and it seems to me that IF there is a way to make such a petition representative of opinion within the town, it might at least give a definition of Charlburians' opinions. Sorry if I have dropped you in it, Richard ... if there are other ways of putting this to bed then let's discuss them!

I'm now going to go and play some amplified music ;-) 

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 22:16

They might be but feel they couldn't say so because so many people appear to like it. 

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 21:41

I don’t think that anybody else in Charlbury was offended.

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 20:08

Mark, the last band who performed on The Playing Close also had small amplifiers.

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 19:29

The whole point of the TEN is that it allows for amplified music. 

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 18:42

I am grateful for all the comments about my posts on this matter. 

Liz: your post of 4 July which you refer me to indicates that the event with amplified music in the garden had to be cancelled because there was no licence in place for such an event. It was not apparent from your post that a Temporary Event Notice included permission for amplified music and this is something for further discussion with WODC.

Charlie: you have certainly lived here longer than I have, but fifteen years I think qualifies me to have some sort of voice about events in Charlbury. All the events you refer to, past and present, have taken place and do take place inside, not outside, with the exception of the Riverside Festival, which does not take place in the centre of town, and is in any event a community event, not a commercial event. Music is frequently played on the Playing Close during the summer, but it is unamplified. This seems to me to strike a reasonable balance between the diverse tastes and interests of the residents, a diversity which is one of the very attractive features of living in Charlbury.

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 17:33

How wonderful it is to have such events at The Bull and elsewhere. What a living, vibrant community we have. Thank you to Dave and all those at The Bull for providing opportunities for young, old and families to get together to listen to fantastic music.

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 17:02 (last edited on Mon 15 Aug 2022, 17:04)

Charlie if you don't want to change Charlbury why have you moved The Grammar School?

 I wasn't aware of any noise and I live much closer than Mr Hoffmann 

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 16:39 (last edited on Mon 15 Aug 2022, 17:09)

I sought consultation on this before posting it, as this is such an important topic that I did not wish to see it consigned to "Debate" because of my post ...

Mister Hofman, with respect, I would suggest that you are trying to turn Charlbury into something it has *never* been, certainly in the 27 years that I have been living here.

When I first arrived in 1995, Charlbury had its own music club, The Hothouse, which used to take place in the Old Primary School next to the Playing Close (where the Beechcroft development now is). It's fair to say that The Hothouse was a greatly respected music venue, which in those days did more than anything else to put Charlbury on the "music map", just as our beloved Charlbury Riverside Festival (which started around that time) has done. As a Charlburian (albeit an incomer!), I am immensely proud of these integral facets of Charlbury life!

For many years The Rose & Crown has enjoyed an enviable reputation for putting on live (mainly blues) music. To a lesser extent The Bull and The Bell have also put on live music. There are also other venues such as the Memorial Hall and The Shed, both of which have had their part to play.

All I am trying to illustrate is that Charlbury is a *lively* and *vibrant* town! If you decide to move to a place, I think you *research* that place before you move there ... in my case I was recommended Charlbury by a work friend; I came; I saw; I fell in love with it; I found a house and moved here.

But in all my time here, I have *never* tried to change an aspect of Charlbury that I do not like! If *enough* people "do not like" a particular aspect of a place, then it will EVOLVE! And Charlbury has evolved into what its people make it and want it to be!

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 16:34

Typical, Dave.

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 16:05

Thank you to everyone that has supported the Bull with the Sunday afternoon performances. I was playing yesterday when Mr Hoffman came to complain and am confused by the claims of a bass thump. As someone has already said, there was an acoustic guitar, fiddle and cello with 2 vocals.

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 14:50

Mark, if you go back over this thread and read what I wrote on July 4th, all will be clear.  The Bull did not previously have a licence for amplified music, so they (responsibly) cancelled a planned event, applied for a TEN, and have now put on an event using amplified music which they are absolutely entitled to do.  

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 08:55

Richard, thank you again for your useful information. The point at issue, I think, will come down to the difference between unamplified, acoustic music, which can be enjoyed by people in the pub garden without significantly affecting people elsewhere who may not wish to listen to the music, and amplified music, which often imposes itself on people living at some distance who may not wish to have to hear the music. A reasonable balance of the different interests of pub-goers and residents would seem to be struck if the music is limited to unamplified music.

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 08:12 (last edited on Mon 15 Aug 2022, 08:30)

Mark, I think you might have misunderstood how TENs work.

A TEN is automatically granted unless the police or Environmental Health object within three working days. As the Bull ones were applied for on 26th July, they will be in force.

From the WODC website:

“The TEN will be acknowledged the same day that we receive the application. The responsible authorities have three working days to serve an objection notice if they feel that there will be an adverse impact on the licensing objectives. If the application has not received an objection after three working days the application is deemed as granted.”

Mon 15 Aug 2022, 06:41

Huw, *one* person in particular, or - at most - a very small minority. I have sent you a private message.

Sun 14 Aug 2022, 20:56

Todays event was excellent. Such a pity that there are always people who complain

Sun 14 Aug 2022, 19:25

Thank you for the information about the WODC website. I note from that website that the application for a Temporary Event at The Bull today, 14 August, is pending and has not been granted, and that there are no current Temporary Event licences granted for The Bull.

Sun 14 Aug 2022, 19:24

We had a super Sunday lunch at The Bull. It was refreshing to have some beautiful live music tinkling gently along in the background whilst we had our lunch.  Well done to Charlie and The Bull team for supporting local artists and to Crooked Little Heart for performing in 33 degrees heat. 

Sun 14 Aug 2022, 19:06

They’re Temporary Event Notices – you can see them by going to https://publicaccess.westoxon.gov.uk/online-applications/search.do?action=simple&searchType=LicencingApplication and searching for ‘bull charlbury’.

Sun 14 Aug 2022, 19:06

There were only 3 instruments -  cello, violin and guitar so can't understand the heavy bass thump.  Cello wasn't play all the time...   that was after 4.

Sun 14 Aug 2022, 18:13

We have been hearing amplified music from The Bull this afternoon in our garden on the upper side of the Playing Close, with, among other things, a heavy, loud and disturbing bass thump. I spoke to the manager of The Bull, Alex, this afternoon, who told me that The Bull has a licence for amplified music. Is anyone aware of a licence application having been advertised or of a licence having been granted for amplified music, as distinct from acoustic, unamplified music? Does anyone know what are the terms of the licence, for example, how long the music can go on and how late?

Wed 13 Jul 2022, 16:37

That’s great news, Dave. Looking forward to it.

“Crooked Little Heart are a 10-piece Death Metal band from Trondheim, who play an abrasive, dark style they label as ‘anti-melody’. Lead singer, Lars Fridreksen’s distinctive ‘cookie monster’ death growl vocals have been know to hit over 110 decibels. Not for the faint hearted” *** Metal Hammer, 2019

Wed 13 Jul 2022, 11:49

That’s great news Dave. Well done for persevering. Sure there are events held locally  that are not as quiet as a bit of acoustic music. 

Wed 13 Jul 2022, 11:30

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. I am delighted to share that The Bull have had formal approval for the necessary Temporary Events notices from WODC which means there will be music over the next few weekends, starting with Crooked Little Heart this Sunday at 2pm

Sun 10 Jul 2022, 21:34

Thanks Dave,

I didn't know that.

Hannen.

Sun 10 Jul 2022, 12:08

Hannen the reason for amplification is that single vocals do not carry more than a few feet in the open air which makes it very difficult for both audience and performer. The intended levels at the Bull are such that the music can be heard over the conversation level but without being intrusive

Fri 8 Jul 2022, 18:05

PRS licences are not required for live performance of music which is not licensed through the performing rights society. However, they do their best not to make that clear.

Tue 5 Jul 2022, 16:04

Two questions:

1. If the music wasn't amplified could the performances still go ahead?
2. Why are they being amplified? 

Mon 4 Jul 2022, 19:19

Thanks for clarifying that Liz and confirming a reasonable position on both sides

Mon 4 Jul 2022, 18:09

As promised, I have been in touch with WODC.  Apparently, Charlie Crossley had a conversation with whoever had booked the entertainment and it transpired that they were going to be using an amplifier, which he wasn't previously aware of. The garden at The Bull is not covered by the Bull's premises licence and therefore an additional license was required for the amplified music.

Charlie therefore decided to cancel the event as the act could not be moved inside. He and the officer from WODC have discussed using Temporary Event Notices for any future events he would like to put on in the garden area, so they should be able to go ahead.

Sun 3 Jul 2022, 21:18

If, as Mingustree do, the band only plays originals does the venue need a PRS license?

Sun 3 Jul 2022, 13:01

Every business that has any music on needs a PRS license, that’s not what the issue is. 

Sun 3 Jul 2022, 10:22

There is another sort of licence that appears to be required, and that's one for playing copyrighted music, either pre-recorded or live. I would have thought that a matter of civil rather than criminal law though.

https://www.gov.uk/licence-to-play-live-or-recorded-music

Sun 3 Jul 2022, 00:15

Dear The Bull,

Just crack on with next week’s planned session, as per government guideline listed below. 

Sat 2 Jul 2022, 21:56

I'll be interested in what Liz Leffman and Andy Graham can find out/tell us about how this situation arose.

In the meantime, I'd like to add my voice to those who believe cancelling or preventing events like these is to be opposed as strongly as possible.

Full disclosure: I was in a band with Dave Oates for about nine years and am in one of the acts originally asked to play at the Bull.

Sat 2 Jul 2022, 19:22

Disgraceful.  A single voice should be drowned out by that of the crowd.

Sat 2 Jul 2022, 18:05

Carry on and fight any consequences - Hannen can lead the charge !

Sat 2 Jul 2022, 17:05

I am at a loss:

"A licence is not required to stage a performance of live music, or the playing of recorded music if:

it takes place between 8AM and 11PM; and

it takes place at an alcohol on-licensed premises; and

the audience is no more than 500 people"

Source: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/entertainment-licensing-changes-under-the-live-music-act.

Sat 2 Jul 2022, 14:25 (last edited on Sat 2 Jul 2022, 14:26)

Thanks Liz.

Sat 2 Jul 2022, 09:53 (last edited on Sat 2 Jul 2022, 09:56)

A possible explanation is that The Bull did not apply for a licence.   If that is the case then WODC would have warned them that they risked prosecution if they went ahead.  I will investigate and let people know the reason.

Sat 2 Jul 2022, 07:21

Is it just that the bull doesn't have a music licence? In which case they should have told the organisers of the event? I don't know anything about the situation, but if it's acoustic and there's a licence surely there'd be no reason for WODC to threaten prosecution. 

Sat 2 Jul 2022, 06:58

Woke up still really annoyed about this, both for the loss of the event for a integral community business and the selfishness of individual making the complaint. How does this differ from the old boys on the Playing Close the other week, as part of the Charlbury Festival? Or a whole host of things that go on around town? The only difference I can see is a local business making some money. But then all the things at the Old Shed like the outdoor cinema take place (which was great), so can only assume it’s somebody with a very specific vendetta against the pub.

If all it takes is one complaint to shut something you personally don’t quite fancy down then nothing will ever take place.

Fri 1 Jul 2022, 23:24

Sorry to hear this. Acoustic music being a problem in a musical town like Charlbury. Have contacted Andy Graham, leader of the WODC, so fingers crossed,

Fri 1 Jul 2022, 21:45

I would like someone from WODC to explain why they have deprived Charlbury of this event which I believe most residents would fully support 

Fri 1 Jul 2022, 21:18

Oh what a shame 😟

Fri 1 Jul 2022, 19:42

😢 I’m very sorry to hear that.

Fri 1 Jul 2022, 17:52

Sadly, Rhiannon Fitzgerald will not be performing in the Bull garden tomorrow. Unfortunately, someone has complained to WODC and therefore the council have informed the Bull that they will be prosecuted if it goes ahead.

It is such a shame that the July planned events won't go ahead as there were some incredible talented musicians planned, all of which are acoustic performers. I am devastated that a town which has such an incredible reputation for music and the arts has lost a great opportunity for afternoon entertainment during the summer months. If whoever complained would like to talk to me and understand exactly what was planned, I would be happy to have that conversation.