Avoid the bottom of Crawborough

Wed 12 Jan 2022, 20:02 (last edited on Wed 12 Jan 2022, 20:03)

I assume, as it's a private road, then the owners are at liberty to put up their own notice to the effect that it's access only for motorised vehicles and not a through route. Where I used to live there were several nearby private roads with signs to that effect.

Of course it's also a right of way as a bridle path so it can't affect that element.

That said, the law on unadopted roads appears to be very complicated and I'm not sure that they are all, strictly speaking, private roads.

Wed 12 Jan 2022, 18:07 (last edited on Wed 12 Jan 2022, 18:26)

I bring such matters to the Town Council for discussion and always have done.  

Wed 12 Jan 2022, 17:44

So Liz, please explain -  if a sign is to go onto Highways land, since when has the Town Council had to or been asked to give consent?

Wed 12 Jan 2022, 17:16 (last edited on Wed 12 Jan 2022, 17:35)

Gareth, I don't want this to turn into a war of words - as I have written earlier in this thread I have asked for this to go on the agenda at the end of this month because clearly it is a matter of concern to some people living on Crawborough.  The sign could go on Highways land at the top of Crawborough. I asked the Town Council for their views back in August because looking after the interests of Charlbury residents falls to all of us, though I could organise signs myself with the consent of officers.  But if I did that without discussing it with the Town Council first I am sure you would have something to say about that!

Wed 12 Jan 2022, 17:02

Maureen - as Richard and I have said, in order to erect a sign there first has to be a landowner that consents to the sign on their land, and until that happens, little progress is going to be made.  Cllr Leffman has not made clear to the Town Council what consent is required or for what purpose - she has previously discussed a proposal with the town council but did not say that our consent was required.

Perhaps Crawborough residents could identify an appropriate location and get landowner consent - it is, after all, their land, not the Town Council's.

Wed 12 Jan 2022, 10:57

Gareth please refer to Liz Leffman’s post about signage. I have submitted requests to Google Maps and Tom Tom as per Richard’s suggestion, HERE is more difficult to navigate but I’ll persevere when I have time and post details of any responses received.

Thinking about the road surface as suggested by Liz Reason is a longer term issue that would be welcome but the immediate issue in the short term is to prevent damage to property and signage is surely the best first step.

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 18:36

Weren't signs put up around the Playing Close a year or so ago, limiting vehicular access? If there are such restrictions and assuming permission is given and money can be found to erect signage, perhaps the answer would be to have a 'no through road' sign and another reading 'no turning space'.

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 17:24

Make it into a properly surfaced but narrow road with limited access and a cycle lane on one side and a walkway on the other. Priority to parents taking children to school - walking or with prams, cycles and walkers.

If its narrow enough, deliveries will have to be made by smaller vehicles, or go to a collection point. I've argued before that we need a delivery/access point on the edge of town, but the idea was never aired. Perhaps now might be a good time to start imagining it?

Bayliss Yard is very narrow and unclaimed, and companies delivering goods bring smaller vans.

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 17:16

If we had A Last Mile service that made deliveries by cargo bikes, then few lorries would have to make deliveries down Crawborough.

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 15:54 (last edited on Tue 11 Jan 2022, 15:56)

It is a bit compressed but the signage says Except for access. 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.347222,-0.8821305,3a,37.5y,85.1h,89.74t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVi9Prv2_jpQlbJwtDu9N9Q!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DVi9Prv2_jpQlbJwtDu9N9Q%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.07228%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 14:35 (last edited on Tue 11 Jan 2022, 14:47)

It seems like the first step is to contact each of the satnav providers as proposed by Richard F. 

Second, Crawborough is an unadopted road maintainable by OCC as a bridleway only.  It is deteriorating quite badly  and is becoming less safe for pedestrians and cyclists, many of whom are going to school and to homes on the other side of the Slade. The town council would be interested in engaging with Crawborough residents about how to make the bridleway into a safe walking and cycling route in such a way that prevents or discourages inappropriate vehicular access.

Third, simply adding signage may not achieve the desired effect as pointed out by others, and adds further obstacles to those with buggies, the partially-sighted and so on.

Can we try and think creatively here?

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 14:34 (last edited on Tue 11 Jan 2022, 14:34)

There's a private Rd near the JR Hospital that does not feature on googlemaps and has signs up stating no parking nor public right of way. Why do Crawborough residents not do likewise? https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7621305,-1.2205519,3a,15y,62.4h,78.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIErkwqMuVyjRlIgMOGpBzw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 12:47

Information on how we can properly address the satnav menace would be appreciated by all.   OCC has not notified those responsible of the 20mph limit in town - or if it has, the information has been ignored.

As the Town Council does not own land on Crawborough, and it has been clarified that only the County Council can erect signage (and it is not clear whether any landowner has given permission for signage to be erected on their land, much less agreed to contribute towards the cost), some of the comments here seem to be missing the point. 

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 11:54

Janet has outlined the complexities of ownership of Crawborough succinctly and Liz has clarified the issue re erecting a sign indicating that the decision now resides with the Town Council. As with any preventative measure in any field of endeavour, it is not possible to provide a quantifiable evidence base of its efficacy but surely, it would not do any harm? It might also help with insurance claims if signage was in place. It is also a question of attitude- it does seem that our concerns are sometimes brushed aside as unimportant although we pay full council tax for fewer benefits.
I have every sympathy with lorry drivers, not only yesterday, but on every occasion that this arises because it is not their fault. Many residents try to pre-empt problems by requesting a smaller vehicle for deliveries actually destined for Crawborough with photographic evidence. This is sometimes effective. We sacrificed some of our garden by moving the wall back to widen the road to ease the problem and I keep a box of plasters in the kitchen for children who tumble over on the uneven terrain.

Thank you for the Sat Nav links, I will follow them up but can’t see what else individual residents can do which is why help from the Town and District Councils is needed to ameliorate this very real and increasingly frequent occurrence. I’ve lived in Crawborough nearly all my 68 years and have witnessed first hand the deterioration of its surface but that’s a whole other dilemma that I don’t expect to be addressed in my lifetime! 

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 10:44 (last edited on Tue 11 Jan 2022, 10:44)

OCC are responsible for putting up signs and they can go on the land owned by Highways.  But it does require the agreement of the Town Council.  I have written to the clerk and \chair to ask them to include this on the next agenda.  While I agree that signs won't prevent a determined driver from going down Crawborough, they might make them think twice before following satnav instructions.

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 10:37

Crawborough is owned by the landowners on each side of this private road.  The County Council owns the land on which the school is sited.  The first hundred yards of Crawborough is tarmac, paid for by the OCC when the school was built.  The tarmac fools  adventurous HGVs into believing their satnav and driving down Crawborough until they get stuck at the bottom.  There have been at least 3 in the past 12 months, one which reversed all the way up, damaging hedges, the second at 8 am one Sunday morning in August from a London catering equipment hire firm (which took 30 minutes to turn round in Four Gables and my drives,  and the third yesterday, which damaged Little Egypt and took up the time of 4 police officers.  Liz Leffmann tells me that she asked the Town Council to agree to erect signs at the top of Crawborough, but they didn't want to do that.  Unfortunately without their consent OCC Highways cannot put up any signs - so she thinks nothing can be done.  Catch 22?

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 10:19

Maureen – you mentioned “a request for the Town Council to install signage”. Unfortunately the Town Council isn’t legally permitted to install signage: doing so would be unauthorised. Only the County Council, as the highway authority, can do that.

Helen: HERE is at https://mapcreator.here.com. TomTom is at http://www.tomtom.com/mapshare/tools. I’ve used the former but not the latter.

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 09:58

So who actually owns the track then?

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 09:40

A very angry property owner and I would expect angry manager of said Wren driver who I expect would have lost his job through this incident. I shouldn't think the driver was too pleased either. Not a good start to their week. 

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 08:56

Richard do you know where to submit corrections for TomTom and HERE?

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 08:53

I don’t think anyone is suggesting erecting an unauthorised sign?

Mon 10 Jan 2022, 23:53 (last edited on Mon 10 Jan 2022, 23:53)

It’s an offence to erect an unauthorised sign beside a highway, and even as a bridleway, Crawborough still counts as a highway, I believe. So the Town Council can’t do it, only OCC (the highway authority) can – if, that is, it can get the agreement of a landowner (given that Crawborough is unadopted, i.e. privately owned). But I may be wrong!

Honestly though, I really don’t think signs would make much, if any, difference. If you’re unobservant enough to turn off a major road to drive your large truck down a roughly surfaced track, you’re probably not going to notice signs. There are 7.5T weight limit signs on every entrance to the town centre and plenty of larger trucks still drive past them.

Mon 10 Jan 2022, 23:20

Surely the sign(s) could be placed on publicly owned land?

Mon 10 Jan 2022, 21:46

Can I point out that the Town Council doesn't own Crawborough and doesn't have any responsibility for it.  For a sign to go up, that would need the agreement of whoever owns the land on which the sign would be placed. 

Mon 10 Jan 2022, 18:34

The satnavs/phone apps use data from one of four companies: Google, TomTom, HERE, and OpenStreetMap (the latter being a non-profit organisation rather than a profit-making company). Apple are gradually gathering their own data but aren’t there yet.

So suggesting corrections to Google, TomTom and HERE is the way to go, I’d think. (OpenStreetMap is already correct for these cases.)

Mon 10 Jan 2022, 18:32 (last edited on Wed 12 Jan 2022, 17:57)

Unfortunately, although the damage was more extensive today, this is far from an isolated incident! For example, our garden wall has been damaged twice and a neighbour’s car damaged in the recent past. A request to the Town Council to install signage was declined:

“HGV signs for Crawborough. (Request to Liz Leffman by Janet Jeffs. Ms Leffman may have been able to fund the cost from her Councillor budget.) Ms Wilding expressed concern about adding to street clutter with more signage and Dr Mortimer said that she had hoped that Cllr Leffman's budget might be spent elsewhere with more effect. Mrs Burroughs said that it was for Cllr Leffman to decide how her budget was spent surely. Mr Potter and Mr Crisp felt that the money should not be spent by anybody as the frequency of issues with HGV's is probably small. It was agreed not to support the request.” Town Council Minutes, August 2021.

Apart from the expense of repairs, which to say the least is frustrating, many residents try very hard to establish and maintain the hedges and trees that are such a haven for wildlife.  It is so dispiriting to see the damage such as that caused this morning to several hedges and the berries on the cotoneaster opposite the school which would have fed birds throughout the hungry month of January. In my view, it is not unreasonable to ask for signage to mitigate future problems.

Mon 10 Jan 2022, 16:23 (last edited on Mon 10 Jan 2022, 16:32)

Unfortunately it is very hard to remove unsuitable roads from satnavs / google maps.

A few years ago I submitted a couple of requests to Google Maps, neither of which was ever responded to or actioned. One was to remove the route from Cornbury Park North Lodge to the business park via Cornbury House - Google chooses it as a valid route for example if you asked to travel from the museum to the business park. If you tried to follow it you'd end up at a locked gate - it's always a problem for visitors to the business park. The second was to remove Bayliss Yard as a suitable through route.

Really Crawborough ought to be removed as a suitable route. We could all try submitting it as an issue to Google Maps - maybe if they get more requests they will pay attention - see https://support.google.com/maps/answer/10271004?authuser=0

Removing it as a route from google maps doesn't necessarily help with other satnav companies sadly - we probably need to find out how to submit problems for all of them...

Mon 10 Jan 2022, 13:47

I think we all need to avoid Wren Kitchens, until their lorries learn to avoid driving into houses.

Mon 10 Jan 2022, 12:50

It would also be helpful if the Town Council reconsidered its decision not to put warning signs at the top and bottom of Crawborough.

Mon 10 Jan 2022, 11:58

This lorry demolished my neighbours' wall and damaged their house. It is becoming a regular occurrence. This lorry had been directed by satnav down Crawborough. It was delivering to Poole's Lane  and could have easily gone down Dancer's Hill. If you are having stuff delivered in the Crawborough -Poole's Lane  area, PLEASE give delivery instructions to the driver to avoid Crawborough.

Mon 10 Jan 2022, 09:06

Mon 10 Jan 2022, 08:41

Blocked due to an accident - police in attendance