MPs to reject "make water firms cut sewage discharges"

Tue 9 Nov 2021, 14:00 (last edited on Tue 9 Nov 2021, 14:01)

In case you missed it - the Government supported the legalisation to allow the dumping raw sewerage in rivers yesterday.  This is the Brexit I’m proud to have voted against.

Fri 5 Nov 2021, 18:09

There was a petition set up - "Ban Water Companies discharging raw sewage".  It easily got the 111,434 signatures required to table a debate.  

The date for the debate will be 15th November - one week after they will have passed the Environment Bill.  

Will the 30% of voters who voted for this government please do something about it fast ...

Sat 30 Oct 2021, 11:23

More on this to come no doubt (more Parliamentary debate soon) but in case you were wondering why it was 'the Duke of Wellington's amendment', he may have a personal interest as the River Loddon runs through the estate at Stratfield Saye.  Which is downstream from Basingstoke.

Fri 29 Oct 2021, 14:42

The programme last night (ITV 7.30) on rivers was excellent. The man from the Environment Agency was very uninspiring though, especially when he denied WASP's figures. He was very much on the defensive. Still, as the agency and its Welsh equivalent have had their grants severely cut they are extremely under staffed and so able to do little (see Rivercide, George Monbiot).

Robert Courts sent out a long email this morning about how the government has replaced the Duke of Wellington's amendment (which was voted down by the Tories last week) with a much better one and all will be well. Actually it won't be---there is still a long time before anything is going to be done. And the misbehaviours (crimes ?) won't be brought to book unless the enforcing agencies have some teeth. If I see the word Victorian used again---without irony--I shall scream. The large sum of money needed to rebuild the ancient infrastructure is only large because so little has been done for so long by all governments and now the water companies. The government is trying to blackmail us by saying 'would n't you rather have hospitals and schools ?'. Of course they are important and much money has (rightly) been spent on them over the years since Victoria. Not so the rivers and it's now their turn.

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 23:04 (last edited on Wed 3 Nov 2021, 08:53)

Amended to read some local UK legislation based on European directives (e.g. Water Framework Directive) and accountable to the European Court of Justice.  Certainly the UK failed to achieve those high standards in the laws it had agreed based on those directives.  So it appears that in re-writing all the laws to change the accountability we are making it easier to comply.  Do I need to worry about drinking water?

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 20:21

More great work from WASP on ITV that also clarifies that this is not about disappearing EU law.  The Environment Agency prosecutes the Water Companies under UK laws like the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016 but it just doesn't do it nearly enough.  Unless that is happening the Environment Bill undertakings to reduce pollution over time will be impossible to deliver.

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 17:39 (last edited on Thu 28 Oct 2021, 17:39)

The people at WASP have just emailed to draw attention to a prog on ITV at 7.30 tonight - What's in Our Water? 

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 15:17

I see your point Alice, and I agree!

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 15:07

That's the problem Hans.  The rules and responsibility for regulation of the rules are being amended now.  

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 13:36

I am not sure Brexit has changed the rules about sewage release. I can't be bothered to find out, but was it not the case that all EU regulations were transferred into UK law at the end of last year?

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 11:44 (last edited on Thu 28 Oct 2021, 11:44)

Worth reading this before you fire off your emails to Robert Courts today to make sure he gets the message from as many of us as possible.

https://fightingforfishing.anglingtrust.net/2021/10/27/back-paddling-up-the-creek/  

and also http://www.bit.ly/brokenwatersector

As Vaughan Lewis, my fellow member of the ECP water quality group says 'Don’t believe the hype - the wording is far too loose. The Lords have just voted for the Wellington amendment again - they are rightly suspicious. Commons will now need to vote on it again and will flush out the MPs loyalty: something government did not want.'

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 08:25

Don't forget 'the bonfire of regulations'.  Thames Water have been fined millions over the past few years for sewerage release.  All possible under EU law which ended on 31 December 2021.  Our MPs couldn't wait to get rid of these irritating rules.

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 08:23

A few comments on this thread:

While the Evenlode Catchment Partnership is going to do a lot of excellent and important work seeking new ways to manage water resources, I’m afraid I can’t share Liz Leffman’s confidence that the ECP or the Thames Water Smarter Catchment initiative will be at…

Long post - click to read full text

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 23:33

A simplistic summary I know but Hans is basically right.  Since they were privatised the water companies have paid out squillions in dividends instead of investing sufficiently in their ageing infrastructure.  They bleat about how much they have spent but that's the bottom line.  I don't see public v private as so much the issue here as regulation, monitoring and enforcement.  The problem was seriously compounded 10 years ago by making the companies responsible for reporting on their own performance - poacher & gamekeeper etc - together with the emasculation of the EA (remember the National Rivers Authority??).

I've yet to get to grips with what's now proposed but you can bet it will still depend on 'industry co-operation' - instead of serious obligations enforced by a truly independent Office for Environmental Protection funded by a levy on the companies' profits.  Had no reply from Mr Courts to that sugggestion.  Until it costs the companies more to pollute than not to do so, they'll go on doing it.  Simples!

Sewage overflows of course are only one part of the problem - agricultural and surface water run-off also play big parts in the decline of our waterways. 

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 15:33

As a casual observer it seems that the water companies have underinvested to maximise profit, and the regulator does not appear to have done its job. A hole of £ B 150 - £ B 600. Who is going to pay? Well, you and I of course in the end. (Not me though, private well). What is it going to cost per household? We now know that Hinkley C will be built using a new financing model RAB, where the cost per household is expected to ne about £ 1 per month. That plant cost is about £ B 20. So to sort this one out we would have to pay between about £ 5 and £ 30 per month.

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 08:54

It’s a very, very weak ‘sort of’ in the form of self-regulation of an industry notoriously incapable of regulating itself.

It certainly won’t help adequately fund the EA (which has lost half its funding due to cuts under this Government) nor raise the threshold for fines to a level that might make Thames Water take notice.

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 08:31 (last edited on Wed 27 Oct 2021, 09:22)

It's worth noting that the Tories on Tuesday sort of U-turned (or at least sort of U-bended) on this:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/environment-bill-further-strengthened-to-tackle-storm-overflows

Yet again leaving Courts'  incoherent but long-winded support for an earlier Conservative government line look badly judged.

Five years ago, I sat in the Memorial Hall listening to his profession of complete faith and loyalty for Theresa May. The poor sap never changes, does he? 

Tue 26 Oct 2021, 22:14

Some people may remember my CUTE! (Clean Up The Evenlode) posts last year - good to see more people interested.  Some potentially good news this evening - but let's wait to see the small print, old posts will tell you why I am cautious!

Tue 26 Oct 2021, 17:17

I agree with Flora Gregory that this is a succinct and persuasive interview: well worth a listen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YO9C973mjY

Tue 26 Oct 2021, 09:28

Robert Courts lists "Ensuring clean and healthy rivers" on his web page as one of his current campaigns for West Oxfordshire. The Houses of Parliament will be voting again on this issue on 15 November in response to a petition to prevent sewage being discharged into rivers. That means that it is not too late to write to Mr Courts.

And, in response to the point that Alex makes about discharge of sewage already being illegal, the Feargal Sharkey video argues that the new bill on the environment that is being debated decreases the legal protections against the discharge of raw sewage.

Mon 25 Oct 2021, 22:56

Under the existing rules discharge of raw sewage into rivers is only allowed after periods of very heavy rain. As this is being exceeded (massively) by the water companies perhaps a campaign should be started to 'force' The Environment Agency to do its job.

Mon 25 Oct 2021, 20:51

Feargal Sharkey  on R4 today,  excellent ! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YO9C973mjY

Mon 25 Oct 2021, 20:34

Interesting to see that today's report on the BBC news website (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59040175) cites other MPs who voted against, and the wording they used is pretty much identical to those of our own parliamentary representative.  Just makes one wonder who wrote the script for them, doesn't it.

Mon 25 Oct 2021, 14:04

And by the way his argument that it would cost upwards of £150 billion to replace the infrastructure is entirely disingenuous as the water companies are privately owned and the cost would fall to them and their shareholders, not the public purse.

Mon 25 Oct 2021, 12:15

It is extraordinary to read that Robert Courts said, in all seeming innocence, that he supported in principle the Duke of Wellington's Amendment on discharge of sewage but could not vote for it as there was "no plan as to how this can be delivered and no impact assessment whatever". His scruples, to be consistent,  should therefore have prevented his voting FOR Brexit at every opportunity in the House of Commons: neither his fellow Tory ERG supporters nor , famously, any government department made and published any economic impact assessments whatsoever  of Brexit, which has apparently already cost the UK billions; neither did they make and publish plans as to how Brexit would be delivered , boasting of a ready made deal which they had no idea of how to implement   ( and still to this day dare not fully implement, erecting trade barriers on incoming EU products ) . The Brexiteer government had no idea of what the impact would be of the Northern Ireland Protocol, which has proved unworkable. I wonder if Robert Courts can justify his faithful support of that completely insane and economically  disastrous project with no impact assessment or real plan. 

Mon 25 Oct 2021, 10:43

I just got a message from a friend in London - her 13 year old child almost died after wild swimming in the Thames a year ago - it was a school event. They were told later by his neurology consultant that they didn't expect him to make it when he came in. They're pretty sure he caught a virus in the river which went into his brain. 

What's going on? Listen to the Briefing room 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00108jb

Mon 25 Oct 2021, 10:15 (last edited on Mon 25 Oct 2021, 10:25)

Actually, no.  Clean river water is absolutely fundamental to a healthy environment and to healthy living for all species including humans.  So in my opinion, a no-brainer.  We must clean up our rivers and to do that the government has to legislate against allowing sewage overspill. 

Mon 25 Oct 2021, 10:04

Climbing the greasy pole of power? He's a mere Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport, hardly a top ministerial position is it!?

I agree with him, the bill needs proper planning and impact assessments. He also says that he supports the bill in principle. 

If the bill went ahead, the Lib Dems would be the first people jumping all over the spending budget and lack of planning...

Mon 25 Oct 2021, 09:40 (last edited on Mon 25 Oct 2021, 09:42)

Robert Courts' explanation as to why he voted against the amemndment, taken from his website:

"Concerns have been raised that section 141A, tabled by the Duke of Wellington in the House of Lords, was removed from Amendment 45. Section 141A sought to place a new duty on sewerage undertakers in England and Wales to demonstrate progressive reductions in the harm caused by discharges of untreated sewage.

This all sounds admirable, and indeed is something I support in principle. But the trouble is that the Duke’s amendment came with no plan as to how this can be delivered and no impact assessment whatsoever.

Some might argue that a plan is not essential, that one can be formulated afterwards. I would be sympathetic to this point of view if we were talking about a simple, inexpensive endeavour. But in eliminating storm overflows, we are talking about transforming a system which has operated since the Victorian Era, the preliminary cost of which is estimated to be anywhere between £150 billion and £650 billion.

To put those figures in perspective, £150 billion is more than the entire schools, policing and defence budgets put together, and £650 billion is well above what has been spent combatting the Coronavirus pandemic.

The Government’s view was that it would have been irresponsible to have inserted this section in the Bill given that it was not backed by a detailed plan and thorough impact assessment. It would have been the equivalent of signing a blank check on behalf of billpayers"

This is a man for whom climbing the greasy pole of power trumps listening to his conscience or his constituents.

Sun 24 Oct 2021, 22:35

I wrote to Robert Courts earlier this year asking him to do something about the terrible pollution of our rivers by raw sewage (and other things but I thought I'd start there). His assistant replied saying that Robert 'was passionate about the environment' and very concerned about the purity of our rivers. A further email from me asking for action brought no answer. Last Wednesday he did indeed vote against Amendment 45 which would have made water companies legally reduce the raw sewage pollution (not strong enough I know, but a start). He and all but 22 of the Tories voted against it. But the bill and the amendment are being voted on again this coming Wednesday. So do contact him and ask him to change his mind.

Sat 23 Oct 2021, 20:26

Interesting, Flora, but I am quite sure that our excuse for an MP will already have decided how he will vote ...

We already have technology that would allow each constituency voter to vote themselves on such issue (whereupon the MP could vote according to his constituents' wishes). But in our system, MP's are delegates, not representatives.

And, particularly in matters such as this, that is unfortunate.

Sat 23 Oct 2021, 17:18

Also see this - Parliament is going to debate the petition  – "Ban Water Companies discharging raw sewage into water courses.".

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/582336

The debate is scheduled for 15 November 2021.

Sat 23 Oct 2021, 16:17 (last edited on Sat 23 Oct 2021, 16:18)

And the good news is... that yesterday I was at an event at Magpie Farm near Heythrop for the launch of the Thames Water Smarter Catchment Initiative.  This is being done together with the Evenlode Catchment Partnership, who have done great work in highlighting the fact that the river is regularly polluted by sewage (65%) and agricultural run-off (28%).  TW were there in force, as was the Environment Agency. The work that is being done is with the help of landowners and the plan is to clean up the river along its entire length.  Part of this is recreating flood plains that trap sediment from agricultural run-off, and improve biodiversity, and the first example is at Magpie Farm.  But a big part of this will be to persuade TW that they need to invest in their ancient infrastructure and to recognise that it is already overloaded and cannot take more housing. So good news but we have to carry on campaigning to get TW to step up, take responsibility for the dire state of our rivers and clean up their act.

Fri 22 Oct 2021, 22:20

Indeed. Mr Courts was one of the 265 Conservative MPs who voted down the Lords amendment.

Fri 22 Oct 2021, 12:09

Well done for flagging this up. This should not be a political football at all but every Englishmen's right to have a clean water environment. The current MP for Witney seemed to be hiding behind a cloak of ministerial responsibility when I last saw him quoted in the Oxford Mail on the subject. Hiding might be what he should do.

Wed 20 Oct 2021, 19:40

Long post - click to read full text