Covid Passports (Debate)

Wed 7 Apr 2021, 17:35

Chris, you seem to be moving this into politics rather than ethics. Your last paragraph doesn't make any sense.

You have failed to answer the questions posed by Wendy and Rosemary.

Wed 7 Apr 2021, 15:11 (last edited on Thu 8 Apr 2021, 10:15)

Well, that got the debating section, debating, excellent. 

I hear that the latest news is good, however. Even this totally inept government (that failed to protect our precious NHS staff with adequate PPE at the start of the first wave, teachers in the second wave, spent £37b on a track and trace system that took ages to work effectively, said it was ok for families to meet indoors at Christmas when the Covid statistics were horrendous, and failed to seal our borders for over a year, unlike New Zealand), has finally come to its senses and will not be introducing Covid passports for the opening of hospitality. So at least those who wish to enjoy the liberty and freedom of enjoying a pleasant pint safely will be allowed to at least initially. 

I can totally understand the logic for Covid passports for travel, etc, as travel seems to be the most effective way of spreading Covid variants around the planet, which would undermine the currently effective vaccination effort of our fantastic NHS staff and vaccine developers. 

Wed 7 Apr 2021, 11:52 (last edited on Thu 8 Apr 2021, 12:50)

Chris, it's a question of the social contract. I don't think demonstrating that you've been vaccinated is in anyway akin to living in a police state! Having a government that is totally unaccountable, freely wastes public money and wants to pass legislation to limit democratic protest feels somewhat authoritarian. Vaccination is not the same and I don't think it's helpful to make such comparisons when vaccine hesitancy is already a significant problem.

Wed 7 Apr 2021, 08:58

Surely, it's a case of mutual respect.  The sooner we know we are safe to go to a public meeting place be it pub, restaurant or hotel with the knowledge the staff, clientele and customers are all vaccinated the better it is for our hospitality industry. After all landlords have the right to ask for proof of age. Why not for a public health issue.?

Tue 6 Apr 2021, 21:02 (last edited on Tue 6 Apr 2021, 22:01)

I honestly don’t get it, Chris. We have passports, driving licences, medical records, (some have criminal records), dental records... your details are taken if you’ve ever been a juror, or reported an incident to the police.... we have electronic records of addresses and bank account details, and this is without even thinking about it.... and not even mentioned social media. Do you refuse to use these as well?😁

Tue 6 Apr 2021, 19:23

Unless I’m gagging for a pint, I’ll be walking out of any pub that asks me for a Covid passport, thin end of the wedge to a police state.

I will however have the Covid jab as it makes scientific sense. 

Tue 6 Apr 2021, 18:36

Regarding the Wolverhampton comment, Phil. There was a warning to the world from China, from a whistleblower who warned of a Sars-like disease, and who sadly died of the disease. That report was ‘leaked’ on 19 December 2019; it was not noted by the WHO, but picked up by the Taiwanese. They immediately responded, and put their already developed emergency plans in action. 

It appears that the Taiwans offered their trace and track systems (not sure what they called it, this is just a very brief overview) to the wider world, of which we could have taken some note but didn’t, as far as I can see. The Tory government prevaricated and eventually speculated billions of pounds (that is another whole debate of course) for our own belated system, of which we have no public accountability, as far as I know.

To date our death toll reported from Covid-19 is well over ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND.  The Taiwanese people have reported a sum total of TEN people who have died from Covid-19.  

Tue 6 Apr 2021, 13:37

We now know that this will be subject to a vote in Parliament. That will be interesting. 

Instinctively I empathise with Charlie: Compulsory vaccination! End of story! But, of course, it is not the end of the story.

Rosemary; if the first infection had been identified in Wolverhampton instead of Wuhan,   I very much doubt that the UK would have reacted more quickly than China.  Katie makes very good points about the practicalities of un-locking. 

Nevertheless, the question about civil liberties remains. As I understand it, publicans have an ancient right to refuse service to a potential customer at any time without need to justify themselves.  

Tue 6 Apr 2021, 09:47

For travel, the easiest thing would be to add it to the existing International Vaccine Certificates that already exist and are carried by those of us that require it for countries where vaccination against Yellow Fever is an entry requirement. No point reinventing the wheel! There is another thread discussing this in the debate section. With regards to entry to sports and leisure, there is also the issue of employer duty of care to staff to protect them against COVID and this may well feed into the debate. If I worked in a pub, bar, sports ground etc, packed full of people, I'd want to be pretty sure I wasn't being exposed to lots of people that hadn't been vaccinated (unless medically exempt), especially as they will more likely be younger people that haven't been offered the jab yet. The lateral flow tests are not very helpful for mass screening (at least not the Innova ones used in the UK) and I don't think PCR testing is going to be offered.

Mon 5 Apr 2021, 06:37

Phil, as far as I am concerned, the liberty to remain *alive* far outweighs any other so-called "liberty"; I am in favour of compulsory vaccination (except for reasons of allergies, which, I am advised, are extremely rare). And that includes "pseudo-reasons" such as religion (of which I have personal experience). 

Sun 4 Apr 2021, 14:17

if proof is needed whats wrong with the card given to everyone who has had the jab

even with a passport you could still be a carrier apparently and not know it

next will be a passport for flu jabs!

Sun 4 Apr 2021, 00:20 (last edited on Sun 4 Apr 2021, 12:40)

Yes. If the first infected person/people to travel had been tested and quarantined there would have not been a global pandemic. It has become clear that the virus was known about in the country of origin early enough to have prevented its spread. So why would we not want to identify potentially infected people now?

Sat 3 Apr 2021, 14:45

This is much in the news currently. Apparently the great British public is mostly in favour of making the 'Covid Passport' an actuality while Parliament is largely opposed.

I think that I support the parliamentarians in this case because it would, to me, be the thin end of the wedge - once a liberty is relinquished, it is very hard to retrieve.

I think there may well have to be exceptions; for example overseas travel. I can imagine that the EU or the US may require a 'passport' style proof of vaccination at the point of entry. 

Then there is the question of pubs, hotels, B&Bs, etc. Do the publicans, owners, managers, etc have their individual right to ask for proof of vaccination?