Speed Trap on The Slade

Sat 11 Oct 2008, 21:41

Having just got back from a recent visit to Bruges I was astounded about the number of bicycles there were and hardly any road furniture, camera and yellow lines etc. But I feel it the attitude of people towards courtesy especially on the roads is intolerable and almost non existinct. I drive a very large car transporter across the UK and find that many drivers wish to argue with it!!! God knows why, if they wait until I / they get onto a suitable road they can pass - but no they want to go now. As I have said on a previous thread speed traps / cameras are NOT the answer (as drivers know where they are (especially locals) and drivers advise others of the trap ahead (Yes I have done it). The only answer is a physical barrier - a chicane or like the one into Witney from Charlbury which is situated outside the primary school, and we all have to slow down there - don't we.

Sat 11 Oct 2008, 08:03

. . 8 . . .9 . . .10.
(I promised Richard that I would refrain from rising to every bait dangled on the Charlbury forum so I'll restrict my rsply to the issue at hand and ignore the personal jibes that ultimately underline the poverty in the poster's ability to even construct an argument).

For once, I agree with Roger.

The point of introducing this thread was to appeal to a sense of a community taking responsibility for the behaviour of that same community.

Punitive measures like more police, higher speeding fines, and cameras would all have the desired result. As would traffic furniture, lowering the speed limit to 20mph and the installation of a permanent school crossing.

But surely the easiest (and cheapest), option is to get people to change their behaviour into driving more slowly and carefully in residential areas. Not just The Slade, but Enstone Road, Dancer's Hill.

I am confounded by the level of defensiveness and justification exhibited on this forum for any criticism of driving behaviour. It took 3 years for people to even acknowledge that bad driving was a problem in Charlbury and the arguments to date appear to lean towards either ignoring the problem or surrendering to the futility of doing anything about it.

We're talking about people's behaviour on a daily basis, not an act of God.

And if speed cameras are the only way to solve a problem (more than half) caused by local resident, then that's a poor reflection on the ability of that community to solve its own problems.

Sat 11 Oct 2008, 06:19

What next for the Slade or anywhere else in Charlbury.We have road furniture ,now foot bridges, what next when all we need is a little b
it more respect for each other which by the way costs nothing .
The reality is that we do not need any of this ,if only they would double yellow line from outside the school to the bottom of the hill and keep the road clear the most precious thing here namely the children and the lollypop lady would be a lot safer crossing the road .
The mere fact that the motorist has to negotiate past parked cars with parents not realising or caring when alighting children from the car on the roadside of the car (and before anyone shouts me down ,i have seen it done whilst passing in my car)is in itself worrying to say the least and very scary to say the least to the children.
Ask any parent ,the most precious thing in their life would be their children so to protect them is number one priority, secondly before anyone says its alright for some, but mothers have to work,again this is correct but no one in Charlbury lives more than 15 minutes away from the school (walking).
When you hear so much nowadays about people fitting work in around children where is the harm in fitting in a walk to school instead of taking the car,its amazing how relaxing a good walk can be then all you stressed mums and dads would be on top form to face the day.

Fri 10 Oct 2008, 23:11

Footbridges!!! Why should people have to get out of the way, and give way, to motor vehicles when its where people live? Go to proper developed and civilised places like Scandinavia, Germany or Holland and see how things are done to create a proper civil society with the priorities of people first being a principal point of "civilisation" - the word itself means civility in many senses. The English (in particular) self centred individualism (even in contrast to our fellow cultures on this island, the Scots and Cymri) have created a society in terminal decline due to totally upside down "values", sleepwalking into third world status, and recursively blaming the people who point out the *real causes* as themselves "the cause" of everything here "just doesn't work"... as Igor was roundly accused of being what is wrong in Charlbury if people remember that insane slur of reverse (and perverse) logic. Anyone who has lived and worked in a properly civilised society in Northern Europe knows it just doesn't have to be like this. Its an Anglo-Saxon speaking countries' collective cultural problem - they are all like it! We had an old friend and his two young kids over from Holland for a week this summer, whose parent hadn't been to Britain for decades. His comments made one think a bit.

Fri 10 Oct 2008, 16:10

Who will teach people personal respect if the police do not???.It has got to be zero tolerance from Thames Valley police to get the message across.

Fri 10 Oct 2008, 13:03

Derek, it might be busy but its hardly the M40. Can you imagine the expense of two footbridges, especially ones which are DDA compliant.

Fri 10 Oct 2008, 13:03

It might help but boy, would it look ugly!

Fri 10 Oct 2008, 12:43

If a couple of footbridges were built across The Slade (say one near Ticknell Piece and one near Hughes Close) would that ameliorate the problem? This would make it safer for schoolchildren crossing the road and also for people using the Fiveways shop.

Fri 10 Oct 2008, 11:50

Igor - The Slade IS a thoroughfare. It may not be an A Road, but it's the "main" road to Witney. The fact it is also a residential street and school route doesn't detract from that. In fact, I'd be interested to know what kind of road is not a thoroughfare (apart from the obvious cul-de-sac)?

Prior to the houses by Walnut Tree Cottage being built, the council considered making the road a smooth curve so that the lorries coming from the A34 (as it was then)and Banbury wouldn't have to use the cross roads at Hazledean. It was considered a "main" road at that time - 30 years or so ago - since then trafic has increased dramatically.

Fri 10 Oct 2008, 11:26

Igor is right. We should all give up our cars, buy a bike and then use the new specially-converted cycle carriages on the trains (where those without a bike have to pay a premium to travel and stand in the corridors so as not to interfere with those more important members of society).
What rot! The fact is that the car is THE standard form of transport for the general populus and whilst I absolutely agree that drivers should be responsible for their own actions, SOME enforcement is absolutely necessary. This thread is nothing to do with elevating the convenience of cars above personal safety. It seems to me that it has, on the whole, been a sensible debate about the most effective ways of ensuring that safety. I agree with Roger that there is a wider issue of parking on the slade, coupled with sensible crossing of the road (as discussed elsewhere on the forum). However, there is no getting away with the fact that speed kills, whether you are a member of this community or not. The most sensible deterrent is a camera at both ends of the Slade and then the murderous, malevolent breed that are motorists would have to slow down!

Fri 10 Oct 2008, 08:04

Most of the opinions expressed here say nothing about the personal responsibility members of this community need to assume to stop the speeding. The answers here all seem to point to the police to take more punitive actions against motorists.

If Derek's kangaroo court that convicts on sole on the basis of error were applied to persistent offenders who know what they're doing at ten times the speed, there wouldn't be a problem to solve. Unfortunately, it's a stacked court.

What's equally disheartening is to read the attitude that elevates the convenience of driving above public safety on a residential road that's also a school route, not a thoroughfare.

There's no need to analyse the causes of speeding on The Slade, it's simply because the motoring consensus of Charlbury have adopted the attitude that it's acceptable to speed when its convenient and that any attempt to address the problem is a needless waste of council money.

Meanwhile Charlbury is fast gaining the reputation of being the premier driver-friendly village of Oxfordshire, something to be proud of.

www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/news/3742865.Half_found_speeding/

Fri 10 Oct 2008, 06:51

The one thing that has not been mentioned yet,is the fact that drivers on what is the main through route of Charlbury is stopping the drivers from parking in the morning on the hill approaching the school from the east.When you look at the highway code you are discouraged from overtaking on the brow of a hill and frowned upon by the police for doing so ,in which case is there not a classic case for double yellow lines on that hill approaching the school crossing which would help enormously with A.Drivers being able to see the crossing patrol without having been distracted by having to navigate between vehicles.
B.Make it much easier to see what is happening for motorists that are not local .
C. So much safer for the children to cross without having to worry ,before they have to undertake a full day at school.

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 22:13

Taken from www.ukmotorists.com/speeding%20fines.asp

This table shows the basic fines you can expect to get for each offence but note that as from December 2004 each case will be looked at individually and assesed for weather conditions, road conditions time of day etc.
Speeding Offence Fine Costs Penalty Points
up to 15mph over the posted limit £44 £30 3
16mph to 25mph over the posted limit £45-£100 £30 4
26mph to 35mph over the posted limit £45-£200 £30 5-6
36mph or more over the posted limit £67-£300 £30 Ban 1 month to 12 months

If this was the type if penalty was enforced, surely it would make drivers slow down.
If everyone of those speeding drivers from last Saturday woke up to points on their licences,would it make them think again?

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 20:05

As I see it, the bottom line is that most people agree that a 30mph limit on The Slade is appropriate - if it was obeyed and the question is how best to arrive at that position. I think that 20mph is unrealistic given that The Slade is a through route, (though it might be appropriate in the town centre).
Roger, plese read my posting about French roads more carefully - I did not not state that this was the answer for us, just that solutions ARE possible. Maybe speed cameras are the answer - personally I prefer measures that prevent excessive speed and reduce the chance of accidents, surely a better solution than legal action when the offence (or accident - see my other posting) has already happened. At least the community is having a discussion about the situation - I would not wish to see Nine Acres situation to occur again.

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 18:50

There is no escape with modern technology. There is always an enforcement option ;) Try this heads up from the inimitable BoingBoing copied below with url links, and remember, that with Big Brother if you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to fear...

(Aside... if we are sleepwalking to…

Long post - click to read full text

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 17:45

I agree whole-heartedly with Mark and David on this one. Most of us on this forum are both motorists and pedestrians and I don't think it is unreasonable to try and strike a balance between these interests.

Certainly speeding on the Slade is irresponsible and I don't condone it in any way. However, it is the main thoroughfare through the town and 30mph seems to me a very reasonable speed on that road. A 20mph limit will inconvenience all those law abiding drivers who are happy to stick to the 30 limit.

I do think that Mark is justified in making the link between the 50mph limit on the Woodstock Road and a proposed 20 mph limit throughout Charlbury. Often these reduced limits seem to be scattered on major roads arbitrarily and with no obvious purpose. I still cannot think of any good reason why the Woodstock Road had its limit reduced. Reduction is speed limits often appears to be a knee jeck reaction to a problem unrelated to existing limits.

I also disagree with the suggestion of adding street furniture to the road. Besides being costly and unslightly, they also lead to much stopping and starting, additional vehicle noise and a loss of comfort for drivers and passengers.

Surely a speed camera on the Slade will make sure people obey the limit without inconveniencing drivers.

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 15:58

The fact of how i feel is not rhetoric ,far from it .You talk of respecting each others views and then continue to express yourself it that fashion .I am one of those drivers that use the slade and i feel that i have stuck to the facts without casting aspertions on anyone .The mere fact that i would not like to see french road furniture in Charlbury or the like ,is in my view it would cost to much and put lives at risk as when the lad that was hit by a car on the Slade and killed ten years was apparently emerging from behind an object and the driver who was not speeding did not see him only serves to tell me that when you start putting road furniture in place on any road there is a precedent for something like this to happen again.Surely the idea here is to stop drivers speeding in Charlbury,not create an idiotic road garden that only serves to to disrupt the flow of traffic with the possibilty of further accidents.

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 14:37

Two practical observations on Diana's suggestions: (1) much as I'd like to see a 20 m.p.h. limit all over Charlbury, I simply do not see it as a viable solution; it simply would not be enforcable and many drivers would ignore it. You cannot enforce speed limits by coercion; there has to be a degree of consensus. It would be better to invest effort in encouraging people to obey the current limit, and that in itself would be a great improvement. (2) On road furniture, be careful what you wish for. I used to live in Watlington, where similar traffic calming measures were introduced some years ago. They may have slowed traffic, but because they enforced a start-stop style of driving, they also resulted in a great deal of extra traffic noise, day and night, as vehicles braked, revved engines, slowed to give way, and so on. There were constant tail backs through the town, exposing pedestrians to additional dangers when crossing the road, and there was a great deal of additional traffic pollution. It was awful.

Surely the obvious answer in The Slade is a couple of speed cameras?

But none of this alters my initial thoughts, and I'm sorry if people read them as either condoning speeding in The Slade (which I certainly don't), or as drawing any direct connection between speed limis there and the 50 m.p.h. limit on the Woodstock Road. The point I was trying to make is that rules of any sort depend on consensus if they are to be viable. As the Poll Tax debacle - or for that matter policing in Northern Ireland - shows, they simply become unenforcable if a large part of the community refuses to cooperate. And I'm still quite clear in my own mind that the recent multiplication of what often seem like arbitary and illogical speed limits all over West Oxfordshire does a great deal to encourage drivers to treat all road regulations with indifference. That has to be a bad thing.

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 14:13

If I'd thought it was nonsence I wouldn't be suggesting it. If I wasn't willing to pay for it, I wouldn't be suggesting it either. If I didn't think it was important, I wouldn't be posting here.

Please leave the rhetorics out, respect each other's opinions and ideas, and keep this discussion to facts, arguments, ideas, suggestions, etc, so that it may actually lead to some positive changes.

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 12:45

I feel that the way forward would be regular speed traps or whateve you call them and instead of fines only have the drivers come and explain to people why they felt the need to speed in the first place .As for french style road funiture why not go the whole hog and have french style cafes along the slade as well .Come on lets keep it real ,who in their right mind would want to see their council taxes spent on such nonsense,certainly not me .

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 12:41

Really Igor you are the arch self-kidder of all time! As someone who has been convicted in this kangaroo court three times for breaking the law (twice for cycling on the pavement, once for cycling the wrong way down Sheep Street), for you to then suggest to Mark that he is choosing to ignore laws that he finds inconvenient is simply too priceless for words! Mark was only saying that commonsense should be applied, and this would seem to me to be eminently sensible and should also extend to things such as stowing bikes on trains. After all, the guard who refused to let you put your bike on an HST the other day no doubt justified his decision by saying he was "only applying the rules" or something similar and you didn't like that much did you?

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 12:27

I just fail to see what any issues one may have with the speed restrictions on Woodstock road have got to do with the speeding on the Slade. For a start, there was as much speeding on the Slade before these restrictions were put in place as there is now. So it would be great if the discussion here could be kept to finding ideas and suggestions for improving the safety of the Slade. As the need for that seems to be quite generally accepted. I tend to be quite radical in these things: I would be all for a 20mph speed restriction in most of the residential areas in Charlbury (that's as fast as you can safely go in many places anyway, despite what many drivers seem to think), and I very much like Helen's suggestions for 'French-style' traffic calming measures on the Slade. I suppose it will all boil down to costs though - which means that we, as a community, need to convince the authorities that this really is a priority.

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 12:01

I fully agree with Mark's points. Speed restrictions in the UK generally appear to have no basis in logic, nor do the position of speed cameras, other than to figure out the best way to maximise income.. To give an example, the camera on the Oxford side of Woodstock is frequently facing away from town, by which time those exhibiting dangerous speeds through the town centre have already left! I for one would advocate the installation of a camera at both ends of the Slade to keep speeds down near the school crossing. Equally, I would like to see the rediculous 50 mph limit removed once away from the residential areas on Woodstock Road. Common sense should prevail when planners make these decisions. (I will now sit back and await the tirade which is no doubt coming my way)

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 11:40

With respect, Igor, I certainly didn't say that we can choose to ignore rules that are inconvenient to us; I was very careful not to (1) because I don't agree with it; and (2) because I knew perfectly well that someone would immediately start wagging the finger at me about it. I might has well not have bothered to word what I said so carefully, as the accusation came anyway.

In general there are two approaches to any problem. The first is to try to analyse what might be contributing to that problem with a view to making a difficult situation better. The other is to vie to see how can be loudest in denouncing the moral turpitude of those concerned. The latter approach may make us feel good, but rarely seems to do any good.

Thu 9 Oct 2008, 09:07

With respect Mark, your point seems to be that we can choose to ignore those laws that we find inconvenient. The idea that because there are 50 mph limits on relatively empty rural roads somehow entices drivers into not slowing down when turning onto 30 mph residential roads appears to presume a certain lack of self control on the part of motorists.

"Brakes, most cars come equipped them".

The fact that there are more traffic accidents and fatalities on rural roads compared to urban roads in general would underline the need for more regulation and enforcement of driving laws, particularly in the countryside.

It seems to me that the philosophy of de-regulation (the fewer the rules the better), generally leads to catastrophic consequences; but maybe that's just me.

Wed 8 Oct 2008, 21:39

Intersting points made by Mark, including "cars racing through the centre of town at 35 to 40 mph in narrow streets". I have certainly seen a minority car drivers doing these kind of speeds in the Enstone road, Park street and Church Street. One driver even took Church Street so fast that he could not make the bend at the bottom and crashed into the wall. I also know of one driver whose car has been hit three times in the last three years, whilst legally parked in the streets in the centre of Charlbury.

Wed 8 Oct 2008, 20:17

I'm very much in agreement about speeding on the Slade, and indeed in other parts of Charlbury - it never ceases to astonish me to find cars racing througth the centre of the town at 35-40 m.p.h. in narrow streets where I would have thought that 20 was about the…

Long post - click to read full text

Wed 8 Oct 2008, 15:28

igor. i was just interested in whether it was(as identified) postcode or 'as the crow flies' mileage measured.
obviously with hindsight the postcode method is much simpler and I should have donned my reading glasses when reviewing the graph before posting my question.
I am sorry to inconvenience you.

Wed 8 Oct 2008, 06:19

Do I hear a vague attempt at dodging responsibility here?

"Local" is defined as within the postal area to which car registrations are traceable and to whom warning letters have been sent.

The point is that there's an identified and verified problem in and around Charlbury with speeding and unsafe drivers in significant contrast to other similar villages and communities nearby that run traffic safety and community awareness programmes. With all the enthusiasm for community involvement I read on this forum, maybe there's some action this community could take to address the problem.

The police can enforce the law and punish offenders to a large extend their hands are tied without the support of the town council and the local community to assert that zero tolerance.

Tue 7 Oct 2008, 23:21

The problem as i see it ,is that when the one way system was put in place that made Sturt rd/The slade the through road for Charlbury .So in fairness it goes back a long way but i still say the answer is to keep on with speed traps on a regular basis until drivers get the message that Charlbury becomes zero tolerance to speeders.

Tue 7 Oct 2008, 16:42

According to the copy of the report Richard has put in the News section, "local" are those in the "Charlbury and Chipping Norton area"

Tue 7 Oct 2008, 15:18

50% local figure. What is defined as local?

Tue 7 Oct 2008, 08:52

Chris, you say The Slade was designed to carry modern traffic levels, but as Igor says, it is a residential road with a (largely ignored and uninforced) 30 limit. As for residents objecting to not being able to pull out, I am a resident and I currently object to not being able to pull out safely! Our former neighbour, an elderly lady with reduced reaction times, had at least 2 accidents (& goodness only knows how many near misses) in 4 years trying to pull out of our driveway. I agree that the Nine Acres bumps were unsuitable, but there are alternatives.

Tue 7 Oct 2008, 07:51

I don't agree with the knock-on effect argument. The point is that traffic can't physically travel at 40 mph+ through the centre of Charlbury. But motorists can on The Slade, so they do, irrespective of the legal speed limit or reminding lights.

I don't know what 'modern traffic levels' are supposed to be but The Slade is a residential road not a high way and during the week, a main school route.

I like Helen's suggestion of emulating the rural French with traffic 'furnishings' or dropping the speed limit to 20 mph as many residential areas of Oxford are doing.

But what it really boils down to is drivers killing their speed, before their speed kills someone.

50% of the drivers clocked speeding last Saturday were local residents, so please, please think twice before leaning on your pedal.

I hear the word 'community' allot on this forum, perhaps this community could do something positive to address this problem?

Mon 6 Oct 2008, 23:22

And Chris has a very valid point as well.

Mon 6 Oct 2008, 23:20

Helen ,while appreciating what you are saying can you imagine the same thing being created in Charlbuy .You would have people in the slade complaining of not being able to get in their driveways let alone getting out of them .More importantly the french seem to have a more laid back approach to life than you will find in the uk,it is a shame to have to say it but us brits are more aggresive drivers than the french.Well in the countryside anyway.

Mon 6 Oct 2008, 20:48

The knock-on effects of any traffic calming in Charlbury would need to be fully considered, before being implemented.

More traffic calmimg on the Slade,(which was designed to carry relatively modern traffic levels), could just push more traffic (trying to avoid the calming) through the totally unsuited narrow residential roads elsewhere in Charlbury.

Mon 6 Oct 2008, 19:51

Have you driven through a French town where they have done traffic calming recently? They use high quality street furniture to narrow the route in places so you need to slow down, gentle long speed bumps which can be driven over comfortably at the correct speed, plenty of designated crossing places for pedestrians, sometimes the road is narrowed for traffic, to enable designated cycle lanes. All is well maintained, sometimes with tubs for flowers. These schemes are well planned, enhance the town environment and promote road safety. I am sure we could manage something!

Mon 6 Oct 2008, 17:34

Helen ,please could you tell me what traffic calming measures you feel would work.The only reason i ask is that speed humps were tried where i live in Nineacres lane ,only to have so many people complain that they were first lowered and then removed altogether that they were a total waste of time .I do so appreciate what you are saying and would love to see all drivers adhere to the speed limit in Charlbury and everywhere ,but unfortunately until the police can find a way or deterrent strong enough to work we will be stuck with what is a worrying situation.

Mon 6 Oct 2008, 12:44

I wish the police would do a speed trap at peak commuter times. Our driveway exits onto The Slade and pulling out onto it is usually the most hazardous part of any journey. I would welcome some sensible traffic calming measures, designed to slow traffic without stopping it.

Sun 5 Oct 2008, 17:44

The results of the latest speed survey conducted last Saturday afternoon are out of 57 vehicles who passes within half an hour, 24 cars were going over 34 mph and 5 were going over 40 mph.

That's 51% breaking the speed limit.

Now here's the kicker: by tracing registration details the police were able to establish that clearly half of the speeding motorists were local to Charlbury!

Clearly I'm addressing the correct audience.

Sun 5 Oct 2008, 07:20

Come on, can't we have have one thread on here that doesn't turn into a personal debating society? This is an issue of public safety rather than personal opinion.

I'll shortly relay the traffic speed statistics accumulated by the police survey here. It's part of the evidence being submitted to the county to act on.

Physical barriers or 20 mph on that road are two possible outcomes.

Bring it on, indeed.

Sat 4 Oct 2008, 18:03

Roger, when it says "real name only", that does kind of imply that you can't register yourself again under a different name - like "len" - and pretend to be someone else. Account disabled, please don't try it again.

Sat 4 Oct 2008, 17:06

and bikes are also im thinking

Sat 4 Oct 2008, 16:43

We are called cynical on here if we had said something like ,but hey ho mr crocodile ,bring it on man.

Sat 4 Oct 2008, 15:23

It was great to see another turn out of the police Saturday afternoon on The Slade. There's enough persistent speeders now for the police spend all day to sending out tickets. They're also accumulating enough data to move the county to install physical traffic calming measures as the signs and lights have a negligible impact on unthinking motorists. As I chatted to one of the officers about the ongoing problem, he clocked several vehicles going at 45 mph, in a 30 mph residential zone!

One passerby commented that it's only natural to speed down a hill and what can a driver do?

'They're called brakes, most cars are equipped with them', was the reply