Housing Benefit Mythologies

Wed 27 Aug 2008, 06:52

There the goes Igor that should be plain enough for you ,now can we please drop this stupid attempt at making mischief and try and live as we used to in the country ,as neighbours rather than keep digging up old bones.Unless you want to would rather behave like a journalist working for the gutter press and carry on as you have been doing .LETS GIVE IT A REST FOR EVERYONES SAKE.PLEASE.

Wed 27 Aug 2008, 00:14

I had a try at explaining the points system in my posting of 19th August. There are a number of categories (about eight or nine I think) for which points can be awarded; for example, if you have a medical problem, are sharing accommodation, are overcrowded or are in an insecure tenancy. The amount of time people have been on the list is only taken into account if they have the same number of points. As I have said (again and again) I, personally, think the amount of time one is waiting SHOULD also add to one's point total. Another factor is that the housing oficials also consider size and type of accommodation; i.e. offering a bungalow to someone who is elderly or has restricted mobility. I don't think I can really add any more to make it clearer.

Mon 25 Aug 2008, 22:34

Well it just amazes me igor that you have not found a link that can tell you what you want to know.You call the rest of us on this forum ,or especially the ones you obviously have no time for but then you fire from the lip again . obviously you do not have what us so called anglo saxons have that begin with B ,you just act in a manner that derides the very people that you live amongst.well whatever makes you happy.

Mon 25 Aug 2008, 14:12

Clearly the question of how just or unjust the system of housing allocation is would be answered by the criterion by which the qualifying points are given.

Perhas Glena could shed some light?

Exactly how many extra bonus points do asylum seekers or recently pregnant women get over God-fearing Anglo Saxons ?

;-)

Wed 20 Aug 2008, 16:39

Well it might be a good idea to change the system completely then and let the town council select who gets local housing ,as clearly the system at the moment does not work .Or maybe have a panel of some of the people who have written on this thread to have a go.

Wed 20 Aug 2008, 14:27

Sorry---third para. should read 'so, in this way they rack up a great deal of waiting time but it might NOT be actually relevant'.
Apologies !

Wed 20 Aug 2008, 11:58

I am very glad indeed that Mike managed to help your daughter but neither Mike nor I can produce houses if people do not have enough points---that is not our fault, it is the system.
Yes, I have said that don't think it is right and that I think waiting should contribute to one's points.
However, it is also true that the list has on it many people who are not actually in need at the moment but go on it as a kind of insurance for when they do. So, in this way they rack up a great deal of waiting time but it might be actually relevant.
The points system was introduced so that need could be assessed more objectively and not come down to 'who shouts loudest' but I am NOT defending it as it stands. I have been the only councillor on WODC who has been trying to get waiting time included.

Tue 19 Aug 2008, 23:43

Well i am sorry if it offends, but what sort of message does this send out to young people nowadays.We keep saying about the young not entering into marriage but whats the point when you can get a house or flat more easily if you have a child ,overcrowd your parents home with the intent of getting extra points and a place of your own quicker .Please tell me that this does not happen because this is exactly what had to happen with my own daughter and only with the help of Mike breakall did they get a home after being told at the council that if she had been a single mother she would have got more points and so got a home quicker .HOW CAN THIS BE RIGHT.

Tue 19 Aug 2008, 23:21

Oh help ! It is rather complicated and I have just said that I do think how long you wait ought to matter but it cannot (and will not by the present law) be the ONLY consideration. However, not having a 'waiting list as such' is not necessarily unfair.
As I explained, points are allocated according to strict categories of need NOT according to who shouts loudest. So the system has its own kind of justice but, I think that without also including waiting time it is a very partial kind of justice.

Tue 19 Aug 2008, 22:58

Thankyou glena for putting us straight on the fact that there is no waiting list as such .This is exactly what i have been saying on this thread ,but surely there ought to be one and then and only then people would understand fairness in the fact that people know in places like Charlbury ,that they are being treated fairly and it is not just because someone shouts louder than someone else that they get preferential treatment and please do not tell me that that does not happen because i have seen it with my own eyes in the past.

Tue 19 Aug 2008, 21:57

There is some understandable confusion about the housing allocation law and the actual procedures. I will try to make it a bit clearer.
Firstly, there IS a need for a local connection to be established for affordable houses but not social housing (though, in my experience, people with local connections…

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Tue 19 Aug 2008, 17:03

Igor,

The perception that certain groups of people are gaining unfair advantages because of the stupidity and/or political leanings of those who run our social services is nothing new. There were almost certainly people saying similar things about the Saxons that Vortigen invited over during the Dark Ages.

There are idiots in council offices, and government departments who have let asylum seeks or recently pregnant women jump the housing queue. Not as many as the Daily Mail et al suggest, but it has happened and probably still is happening.

As we are predominately a white (circa 90%), and Christian (circa 75%) country it is hard to see what the doom mongers are so worried about. Perhaps they can go and have lunch with the global warming lot and scare each other silly, and stop bothering us.

Tue 19 Aug 2008, 05:58

My intent isn't to mentor or patronise you Roger; it's only when you express a certain type of opinion on a public forum that I am duty bound to object, contest and attempt to dissuade.

It certainly isn't personal: I would challenge the same opinion regardless of who expressed it.

Nor does my response have anything to do with what is or isn't politically correct, fancy, common or otherwise qualified.

It is simply, and as always, my opinion.

Mon 18 Aug 2008, 17:23

Actually Igor ,forget my last posting as i am obviously not being politically correct in my judgement. I had a call from Gordon to say that if i carried on like this i was likely to be deported as an enemy of the state.The thought of this at my age is to much to bear ,so i have to behave from now on as i cannot run fast enough to catch a moving train and no lorry would be comfortable to stow away in.

Mon 18 Aug 2008, 17:12

Well igor ,its just a shame that you were not my mentor all those years ago when i was at school .I just see things as they are from a common point of view (theres them that breaks the law and them as dont)and whichever way you uses fancy words it comes to the same thing that we are never likely to agree as usual because as long as you can find all this information and not just use your own thoughts only then we will have to disagree on this one.

Mon 18 Aug 2008, 15:17

But Roger, your judgement is implicit when you group asylum seekers with 'people who have entered the country illegally' Associating the first category automatically with the latter is what I call prejudice. Someone asking for asylum is by definition acting within the law as determined by international treaty. The only question becomes whether or not they are entitled to claim the status, for which there is a statutary process (and if denied the status, another legal process).

It's the same as making the category of 'drunk Brits who get in trouble with police abroad' equivalent to 'Brits who travel abroad'.
Sure, there's an overlap but not a defacto one nor a majority one.

Regardless of ones personal experience, I venture it can be disengenuous to draw broad conclusions based on selective circumstances.

Tarring single pregnant women with the broad brush of gaining undeserved entitlements helps no one and paints a false picture. You may not be stating it but there's certainly an implication in your assertion.

with due respect,

Mon 18 Aug 2008, 11:17

No one is judging anyone ,i am just stating what happens when people come to this country illegally and then our government because they want to appease the few let them stay here .As i have said i can only relate to my own experiences on this matter and this is what i know to be true .On the matter of pregnant girls again in this area it has been said exactly as i have said in my last posting .It happened when my own daughter applied for housing after getting married that the council told her that if she had been a single mother she would have gone to the top of the housing list.This is what i base my views on ,not as you did and quote a national newspaper article.Why if people need help so badly do they travel through safe countrys to arrive on our shores .Surely safety is safety wherever it is found.

Mon 18 Aug 2008, 08:07

Good, then we're agreed.
Your father (and mine) fought in the world war for the principles of democracy, freedom and the protection of the weak and vulnerable against the might of the extreme right. Against the fascist values of the relentless pursuit of self interest at the sacrifice of everyone else and the oppression by the strong of the weak.

Those values still hold.

And to me, I have no business judging or denying an asylum seeker seeking refuge or a single pregnant mother seeking hospice until I've walked in their shoes.

Sun 17 Aug 2008, 08:15

Igor what you say about the british abroad is right in many ways ,but the fact is it not that the bar owners and hoteliers are as much at fault as the brits for serving alcohol for long hours knowing what will happen .As for the nationalistic part ,then yes guilty again because my father and all the other men and women went through two world wars to keep this country free from invasion ,which is why today we have this freedom of speech.I have no axe to grind with any human being in this fine country of ours ,as long as they like me stick to the laws that are there to protect us all.As for the point of being challenged if i did not want to learn form any mistakes i would not be writing this now.If you look at this little island of ours it has done more worldwide about helping people in need and still to this day is with i feel very little thanks for it that it makes me wonder ,SHOULD WE BE BOTHERING ,BUT OF COURSE THE ANSWER IS YES.

Sun 17 Aug 2008, 07:19

Derek, what it has to do with Charlbury is that these naive prejudices are often on display in this community; the forum being only one arena where I've sadly heard this sort of myopia expressed.
I've always felt that it was a poor reflection on Charlbury that here a minority of individuals feel free to express nationalist and xenophobic comments in public without embarrassment or fear of being challenged.

This, a mere 10 miles up the road from an internationally renown centres of learning and knowledge.

I don't believe there's any way I could ever persuade these individuals that non British foreigners (or asylum seekers, for that matter), are the not the cause of all crime and social misery in Britain.

Or that there are large numbers of British nationals causing the police extreme worry in Greece, France and Spain over the holidays.

But the original comment I made was about the prejudices towards single pregnant women as well. Why this has turned into an exclusive focus on the evils of asylum seekers is curious.

Sun 17 Aug 2008, 05:24

Malcolm is this your best shot at sarcasm or just the result of a good education . To me i have seen so much of this put on the garden in my time that even the smell does not bother me anymore and the rhubarb tastes so good.

Sat 16 Aug 2008, 23:58

Sorry Igor, trying to cram far too many bleeding edge third culture points into a series of telegraphed staccato sentences when in quite a lot of pain which clouds the mind ... when each point needs about a page just to touch upon... particularly when approaching sociological and political issues…

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Sat 16 Aug 2008, 23:13

One more thing Igor .please tell me why it is that so many people waited at sangette in france to get to britain when they had freedom in france where surely they had a chance of slighty better weather.Instead of risking jumping on a train to get here or is france such a hellhole to????.

Sat 16 Aug 2008, 23:09

Igor it is not the facts as you put it that get in the way for me but true life .Having had a son in law who was turkish let me tell you that i saw with my own eyes how often and what laws were broken .Also when you watch some pogrammes on crime you see who breaks the law mostly in this country and i do not mean minor crime as our government put it.Serious crime and gang crime are not committed by british people to the extent that people form outside the uk are.Try walking the streets in east london for instance and see how long you stay safe.Its all very well telling us we are wrong and your way is right according to the papers,but get a glimpse for yourself in real life and then convince me i am wrong.

Sat 16 Aug 2008, 22:06

What does anything in this thread have to do with Charlbury?

Sat 16 Aug 2008, 17:25

Malcolm, if you're agreeing with me, I'm not quite sure I understand exactly how. Can you clarify?

Roger (and Mandy): My point is about prejudices and misapprehensions which I felt were apparent in Roger's original comment on the quarry thread regarding single mothers getting pregnant in order to acquire housing…

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Fri 15 Aug 2008, 21:57

Igor, your point of trying to introduce rational, age of enlightenment based information based argument dependent upon cognitive factors that derive from said intellectual, cultural and informationally based paradigms and resultant values ... err, your point in raising them to provoke a discussion in a forum in a locale such…

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Fri 15 Aug 2008, 21:08

Your credentials, experiential evidence of residence or contact with relevant areas, socio-economic and political knowledge and experience - observational,direct or researched in relevant locales and with real people - plus sources of audited and peer reviewed data and information, plus an understanding of global geopolitical and economic forces and our national and economic role in those processes ... altogether, the rational basis for these opinions, are what, precisely?

Fri 15 Aug 2008, 18:19

for once roger i agree with you.

Fri 15 Aug 2008, 16:22

Igor it is alright for you to find facts written on the subject in what you call true media. But why is it that the asylum seekers have to hide away a lot of the time to smuggle themselves into the country before claiming asylum.Why do many of them not want to abide by british law when they are here.why is it that you can get any document you can name for a price ,but not from a english person.When these people that really need help let us be the first to offer it i say ,but when all they want to do is make a lot of money at other peoples expense and misery then its time to say go.

Fri 15 Aug 2008, 10:20

If it's not single pregnant mothers, it's asylum seekers. It's the same attitude that persists in accusing those who are least able to defend themselves with perpetrating the greatest social ills. Ofcourse, there are also popular tabloids who make good a good living pandering to those very prejudices and thus fueling those mythologies.

On the other side of the tabloid are the facts:

Exposed: the myth of the single mother
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19960208/ai_n14027890/pg_1

Myth: Asylum Seekers and Refugees jump local council housing queues
www.clearproject.org.uk/uk/View/Page/Myth_busting