Brexit (Debate)

Sat 13 Feb 2021, 10:02

Leaving to one side the morality of habitually ignoring facts, when all facts and statistics point in one direction it is the definition of foolishness to pretend they are all wrong, especially without hard evidence to the contrary.

“It’s Covid not Brexit” doesn’t explain the collapse of share markets nor the increase in export red tape since 1 January.

Fri 12 Feb 2021, 14:29

Doesn't every debate have facts on one (your own) side, and believers in “alternative facts” on the other? 

However, we must not assume that statistics are facts, in the majority of cases they are just numbers as the full context and background of the statistic (that could make closer to a fact) is rarely given.

Fri 12 Feb 2021, 08:15

We have had orders of essential supplies stuck for over two weeks now due to "Brexit related delays". Haven't been able to find out what the issues are to resolve them even as i can't get through on the phone to speak to UPS. Most frustratingly, these items have made it to the UK, but there is no way to get them released. It is definitely due to Brexit as this has only been an issue since 2021.

Thu 11 Feb 2021, 08:11

As ever in this debate, we have facts on one side, and believers in “alternative facts” on the other.

London has now ceded its position as Europe’s top share trading position to Amsterdam. In separate developments, a British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) survey of 470 firms finds that half are facing difficulties with border trade since 1 January. Urgent action from the British government and EU is needed, says the BCC. “For some firms these concerns are existential, and go well beyond mere ‘teething problems’,” said Adam Marshall, director general of the BCC. “It should not be the case that companies simply have to give up on selling their goods and services into the EU.” The BCC says the situation could get worse if the UK goes ahead with biosecurity checks on food from April and full customs controls on imports from July.  The report can be read wym-1613030992144.

The BCC was for a long time headed by hardcore Brexshit ‘truther’ John Longworrth.

There are vacancies for purveyors of ‘alternative facts’ in Mr Trump’s legal team, or as fast track suppliers to the NHS, though.  Sunlit uplands!

Thu 11 Feb 2021, 07:13

Not sure where you spent most of 2020 Carl, but we were at the height of a pandemic in March, April, November, December, no months were great. But U.K. trade to the EU never fell anywhere near 68%, except January 2021 when we had exited the EU Single  Market and Customs Union.

As Harold Wilson once commented to Margaret Thatcher, all I can do is provide you with the facts, I cannot provide you with the intellectual apparatus to understand them. 

Wed 10 Feb 2021, 23:11 (last edited on Wed 10 Feb 2021, 23:12)

Here he is...

does the 68% assertion take the figures into account or not? Even the ‘quality’ newspaper Observer surely can’t deny with their expert journalists that Covid 19 has had an impact on haulage between Dover and Calais?

And don’t bring up the fish/ shellfish issue. You lot were laughing a few months ago saying that fishing only made up 0.4% of the UK economy. Now every polarised report by the guardian/ independent/ observer of exports not going to EU countries is considered detrimental to the UK... ugh

Wed 10 Feb 2021, 22:37 (last edited on Thu 11 Feb 2021, 07:04)

I did wonder when the smoke screen of the pandemic would be used as an excuse for the current reality of the UK trading position in the world since leaving the EU. As a patriot I take no great joy at the actual gloomy headlines, as pointed out by the quality Sunday Observer Newspaper when it says “Fury at Gove as exports to EU slashed by 68% since Brexit”.

Empty supermarket selves in Northern Ireland since leaving the EU. Baron Shellfish Ltd ceasing trading after 40 years of exporting crab and Lobster to the EU, because of impossible bureaucracy resulting from Brexit . When is the disaster known as Brexit going to finally dawn on even the most ardent Brexit supporter? 

Wed 10 Feb 2021, 14:00 (last edited on Wed 10 Feb 2021, 14:02)

Does that figure take into account the number of UK haulage firms currently not operating or those which have unfortunately fallen victim to Covid-19?

According to a survey carried out last year by the RHA themselves, they found that the following trucks were inactive by sector:

General Haulage - 43%

Manufacturing - 66%

Car Transporting - 96%

These are just a few figures I took from the survey report as examples. In the same report 73% of haulage firms said that their cashflow had been significantly reduced or worse.

The 68% also doesn't take into consideration the increase in air and freight transportation as a result of restricted travel and testing requirements.

I know there are certain people who rather strangely take great joy at misleading gloomy headlines but I hardly think it is reasonable to compare January 2020 figures (when haulage was operating as normal) with January 2021 when the world is still limited due to the pandemic!

Wed 10 Feb 2021, 12:53

According to the Observer Newspaper and Road Haulage Association exports to the EU fell by 68% in January 2021. Not a good place for the UK to find itself in as a major trading nation. 

The disaster known as Brexit continues to unravel before our eyes. 

Thu 4 Feb 2021, 09:59

Chris no problem with rejoining if the majority vote for it so let's call it a day on a point of agreement and discuss in the Rose under the 'vaccine passport scheme'

Wed 3 Feb 2021, 13:21

Tony

1) I’m Campaigning for a brighter future, to rejoin the EU. My guess is that we will be back in within ten years, when it eventually it sinks in what a disaster leaving was, is and will continue to be.

2) Sure the vote to rejoin, will produce more than the 43% of those who turned out to vote Tory at the last election to get brexshit done. 

3) Nations within the EU are also free to pursue their own vaccine purchasing. Some have, including Hungary which purchased the Russian vaccine. At least get your facts correct Tony. 

Wed 3 Feb 2021, 10:11

I think this thread should continue with discussing the world Virus rollout and the headline today that

Results show the Oxford-AstraZenenca vaccine may reduce the spread of coronavirus

Could be a significant development if validated

Wed 3 Feb 2021, 09:27

Last comment Chris and then I'll leave it to you to fight the battles of the past

Main advantage is Democracy has been honoured

Second advantage is freedom to arrange our own vaccine policy

Tue 2 Feb 2021, 19:49

Slightly sorry to hear that Tony is withdrawing and moving on from the Brexshit debate, now the disaster is unfolding before our eyes on a daily basis. Still it will give him some time to think up some of the advantages, before we  get chance to discuss it when the Rose and Crown eventually opens again. Bye bye Tony.

Tue 2 Feb 2021, 18:22

Katie, as I mentioned AstraZeneca does not manufacture the vaccines anywhere, but it works with local partners. It doesn't matter if it is the UK, India, Belgium, Australia and all the others. In the case of India, the Serum Institute is AstraZeneca's partner.

AstraZeneca has the reach in dealing with all these local partners and the staff to help transfer the technology. In the case of India, it already had the world's largest vaccination industry, so there would have been a lot of skills already.

In any event, it's very good news that South Africa is getting batches of the  Oxford vaccine (albeit branded as Covishield in this case).

Tue 2 Feb 2021, 15:08

My understanding is that the UK has now placed orders for more vaccines than is needed to cover the whole population and that consideration is now being given to how to 'donate' the balance. I also understand that the Oxford vaccine, which is being manufactured in the UK can be stored at much lower temperatures than the other two, so will be more suitable for countries without the cooling systems. Also Astrazenica to supply at cost or free. A chance for the UK to join with other countries to address the pandemic on a worldwide basis

Maybe the administrator could move the last few posts to a new thread 'Vaccine Rollout' so we can discuss without politics!

Tue 2 Feb 2021, 13:00 (last edited on Tue 2 Feb 2021, 13:02)

Steve, thanks for that information, really appreciated. 

I know some of my friends who work in the South African health system look on in envy at what the UK vaccination programme has achieved by our NHS staff, and wonder why they and Brazil who took part in the trials have not started vaccinations yet. 

Great thanks Katie for the latest update. 

Tue 2 Feb 2021, 12:57

First doses of the Oxford vaccine (manufactured by the Serum Institute of India, not AZ), arrived in SA yesterday:

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/south-africa-gets-1st-batch-of-indian-covid-vaccine/2130587

Tue 2 Feb 2021, 12:04

I don't know why there isn't a supply chain set up in South Africa as yet. They did, after all, take part in the vaccine trial. However, these things aren't set up autonomously by AstraZeneca. It all works through local partners including, of course, the government of the countries involved. I would have thought that South Africa would have the right infrastructure.

Besides local politics, there is the simple issue of the amount of expertise to commission this stuff. AstraZeneca have never been a vaccine producer before, and they have leant heavily on the Jenner Institute. That this is a tricky and delicate exercise to coax mammalian cells into reproducing and generating the viral vectors is one of the factors. There is a thread here by one of the experts from Oxford who was at the heart of scaling up the production of the Oxford vaccine from the small plant that the Jenner Institute operate for research purposes. He also explains the deliberate policy involved in producing local supply chains as it's simply not credible that rich countries would not prioritise their own populace to whom they have to answer.

https://twitter.com/adamjohnritchie/status/1355136430402580482?s=20

Even in the UK AstraZeneca are not running the factories themselves, but using partners. In the case of the Oxford plant, it's run by Oxford Biomedica, but the other production plant in the Keele University Science Park and the "fill and finish" plant in Wrexham are run by two others.

There is a great deal more to creating a vaccine industry that the science. Historically the UK has been good at the latter, but we tend to have far more trouble in exploiting this, although with the proliferation of "science parks" about the country we are, perhaps, seeing a complete reshaping of industry and what the shape of the economy might be.

Tue 2 Feb 2021, 11:46 (last edited on Tue 2 Feb 2021, 11:47)

Its also a shame that Chris Tatton continually looks for problems from Brexit, but refuses to acknowledge any advantages, such as the successful vaccine rollout, which was the gist of my post and is amplified in Steve's post

I suggest we all move on, as I intend to do, now that the democratic referendum result has been honoured, and accept the new reality, rather than re do the arguments from 5 years ago

We are where we are, get over it!

Tue 2 Feb 2021, 11:06

Yeah, all rather a shame that Tony Morgan brought the issue of vaccines into the Brexit debate on Saturday morning. But hey, we are where we are, so: 

Great to hear from Steve that Astra Zeneca and the Jenner Institute wish to distribute their vaccines across the globe so as…

Long post - click to read full text

Tue 2 Feb 2021, 10:03

Steve good post which expands on my comment that in this case the UK has got their vaccination strategy right both in respect of the current situation and also in Astrazeneca's plan for less well off countries Happy to accept your rebuke for my remark on remainers Will now withdraw and move on from Brexit as others have advised me to do!

Tue 2 Feb 2021, 00:51 (last edited on Tue 2 Feb 2021, 00:57)

To add a little aspect of internationalism into the vaccine debate, then I think we ought to acknowledge the wonderful work that the Jenner Institute in Oxford has been doing, with their partners, AstraZeneca. I should also add what the UK government is doing to support COVAX, Gvip and…

Long post - click to read full text

Mon 1 Feb 2021, 14:54

Chris I don't intend to get involved in another long debate, but I think you'll find that it was the EU who started the Covid Nationalism, and were condemned for it by Michael Barnier, their Brexit negotiator, the Southern Ireland PM, who was not consulted, the World health Organisation & Uncle Tom Cobbly and all

I was just pointing out some good news about this country's vaccination policy

But that appears to be the last thing the 'ultra' remainers want to hear

Sun 31 Jan 2021, 07:02

Sorry to hear that Steve. To relieve your boredom you could always join me on a cycle ride next week if you wish, or even start a new debate on here with one of your pearls of wisdom. 

Sat 30 Jan 2021, 12:23

A case of lock down boredom kicking in I see...

Sat 30 Jan 2021, 11:17

Did wonder how long it would take for vaccine nationalism to raise its ugly head. Yes our wonderful and hard working NHS staff are doing a fantastic job at vaccinating the UK population, and are a beacon of light in these dark times. But I got news for you Tony, even if we vaccinate everyone in this country at break neck speed, we are still very vulnerable to Covid variants from around the world, unless the vaccinations are shared among all countries. This could weaken the strength and effectiveness of the UK vaccination programmes and undermine the work of our NHS staff heroes. 

Sat 30 Jan 2021, 09:33

Chris any comment on the success of the UK's Independant vaccine rollout compared to the collective failure of the EU, resulting in their threat to break an international treaty they have just signed?

Wed 27 Jan 2021, 22:42

Brexshit going well. U.K. businesses finding it increasingly difficult to export to their biggest export market, the EU. Logistics companies just giving up trying to get across the channel.Supermarket shelves in Northern Ireland struggling with food supplies. Even U.K. government trade advisors recommending that U.K. businesses need to move part of their business and staff to mainland Europe to survive. Still at least the Irish Government are now paying for Northern Irish students to stay in the Erasmus scheme and we can now start using bee killing sprays again, nothing like taking back control though, ugh? . Just have to hope that  everyone wants to eat Lamb and Herring every other day as well. Luvly Jubly. 

Tue 22 Dec 2020, 18:43

I rarely have time to come to the website to read the debates.  At the heart of so much of what's been said, is what we value.  Not just what we value as individuals, but as a country, and as the world.  And what better place to start with understanding what we have come to value - without us even knowing what choices have been made on our behalf - than the Reith Lectures on BBC Radio 4.  Mark Carney, former Governor of the Bank of England spells it out with fantastic clarity.  The first one is tougher to understand because it is more fundamental economics, but it's worth it.  I have read Mariana Mazzucato's book The Value of Everything in which I learned many things.  But the one thing that has really struck me is how economics are a reflection of what we value, and these values get translated into our calculations of Gross Domestic Product.  Which has gradually moved from land, to land and labour, to what we manufacture.  And then who knew ? - to the money-go-round that is the City's global financial trading....... What is the value in that?

Sat 19 Dec 2020, 22:33

 I believe it's used to describe interactions where people bait each other and egotistically try to score points, disregarding the real issues at stake. 

I'm guessing whoever coined the term made reference to the male member because he/she  may have observed the behaviour more often in that gender. 

Sat 19 Dec 2020, 22:19

And happy xmas to you Amanda

Sat 19 Dec 2020, 21:57

Tony, you might at least get the name of the Welsh captain who was the victim of a sexual assault by an Englishman correct.  His name is ALUN Wyn Jones.

Sat 19 Dec 2020, 18:51

And to you and Nicola, and yours, Tony.

Best wishes,

Hannen.

Sat 19 Dec 2020, 17:37

I think it’s what happened between Joe Marler and Alan Gwyn Jones in an England Wales rugby match last year!

A happy Xmas to you Hannen and respite from Gigaclear

Sat 19 Dec 2020, 17:34

Is "willy wangling" like "wellie throwing", but with a part of the male anatomy?

If so, I think I'll pass.

Sat 19 Dec 2020, 17:27

Phil when England win the nations league and Wales come 5th!

Have a good xmas

Sat 19 Dec 2020, 16:39

Gareth, can you quote an example of my "embittered unpleasantness"?

Fri 18 Dec 2020, 17:07

Don’t worry Phil - my opinions remain the same.  Including my view of your embittered unpleasantness.  (You may notice that I have left my thoughts about that up to remind people).

Meanwhile and more significantly, the country is driven closer to the cliff edge.

Fri 18 Dec 2020, 16:51

And maybe you should consider deleting that one, Phil. I can't speak for others (as you have frequently done) but I for one, am really tired of all the willy wangling. 

Fri 18 Dec 2020, 16:36

I note that Mr Epps has deleted 14 of his posts and edited 1 since last Monday. Is there anything that he wants to hide? 

Of course, you can't delete from the internet; the record remains.

Fri 18 Dec 2020, 15:15 (last edited on Fri 18 Dec 2020, 15:18)

Yes, and a lot of them voted out of bitterness and despair which is not something any of us should feel triumphant about.

Fri 18 Dec 2020, 09:40

I believe it was the red wall constituencies “what won it” and they definitely did vote for brexit.

Fri 18 Dec 2020, 09:30

Hello Tony,

I do take issue with your statement that we voted for[ suppoted, in your words ] Brexit, again, last year.

The choice then was clear and unambiguous, unlike 2106, Boris or Jeremy !

We voted against  Jeremy's agenda, not for Brexit.

I have an idea that there wouldn't be an 80 seat majority for either party if there were a re-run today.

Thu 17 Dec 2020, 13:22

Gareth I made one personal attack which I admitted was a mistake

I looked back to check on some of your comments but I find they have been removed?

As you will see I am by no means the only one who had problems with your language

Thu 17 Dec 2020, 11:45 (last edited on Thu 17 Dec 2020, 11:45)

Hilarious to see the principal doler out of personal abuse in this thread blaming everyone else for his actions.  A perfect metaphor for what Alice so eloquently described.

Thu 17 Dec 2020, 10:29

Hannen what it means is that a majority voted to leave the EU, MPs of all parties failed to progress this, or to provide a second referendum, with the result that the December election clearly supported Brexit

Unless you think the majority vote should be ignored, a Lib Dem policy that was rejected at the election, then there is no point arguing about whether Brexit is good or bad

In terms of the tone of this debate you will see from the thread that the majority of posters don't think some of the posts are acceptable for a local forum debate

I agree that we have learnt a lot about people from this thread

Thu 17 Dec 2020, 02:04

Very well said Alice.  Thank you.

So sad that Erasmus will end.  And so many other things.  But if it is "the Democratic will of the people" then it's ok.

What does that phrase really mean?

"I agree that when rationality and good manners are lost in public debate it is time to stop."

Have you taken time out to listen to the House of Commons Debates?  

Not for the faint hearted. Not rational, or good manners, in my opinion.  But what would I know?

Wed 16 Dec 2020, 21:32

Brexit happened on 31 Jan 2020.  The transition period comes to an end on 31st December.  The only access the UK will have to the world’s largest free trade area and customs union is the access it is prepared to pay for. Tariffs and rules of origin will be the…

Long post - click to read full text

Wed 16 Dec 2020, 16:50

I think we will have to accept Brexit and try to make the best out of it. And I think it is happening! Looks like we get access to the single market and also customs union. Without paying £ 10 Billion a year. There are some penalties - end of EHIC, only 90 days out of 180 visiting an EU country (will make it difficult for those who wants to spend half year in an EU 2nd home), not participating in Erasmus (a real pity that one), not being able to so easily just up sticks and live in another EU country and I am sure a few others. But I think those are minor issues in the whole scheme of things. People voting Brexit wanted end of free movement and end of EU courts being superior to UK courts. That seems to be happening. So - kudos to the negotiating team if they pull that one off!

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 12:22

Thank you Tony and Janet. I agree that when rationality and good manners are lost in public debate it is time to stop.

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 10:43

Phil I suspect that like me and others you've now realised that rational debate is no longer possible on this thread. It all went wrong when you and I agreed! Pint in the Rose after lockdown?

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 19:49 (last edited on Mon 14 Dec 2020, 19:50)

I was wondering if this would be the longest thread we’ve had to date, but it’s got some way to go yet! Three separate train threads, Rushy Bank, homes on the Fiveways allotments, and change of use for the Bull have all had more posts. Plastic-free Charlbury and Wilderness noise are a short way behind. And we’re a long way behind a canal forum I occasionally post to, whose Brexit thread is now at 5199 posts.

Maybe the Deli should sell Carolina Reapers.

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 18:49 (last edited on Mon 14 Dec 2020, 18:50)

Hear hear Richard!

Actually, I've learnt a lot about the whole Brexit thing and my "neighbours" from this thread.  So "thank you" for leaving it.

It's a painful topic and I'm not surprised at the tone of some of the messages.  

I had to "google" "Carolina Reapers".  What did we do before Google?!

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 18:40

Thank you Tony and Phil. I am pleased to see that for some the days of chivalry and respect are not over. 

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 17:50

Admin note:

I’m touched by those who have expressed disappointment that a Brexit thread isn’t all bunnies and flowers. Well, strike me down with a feather, what are the chances of that.

If there is direct abuse (e.g. “you’re a ——”), or something that appears to me to be actively libellous, then I’ll delete it. I’m not convinced that this thread is necessarily the most edifying of spectacles, but with the one exception, I haven’t seen either direct abuse or libel, and I suspect the protagonists are smart enough to steer clear of that.

This is the Debate board because some of you lovely people want a place to debate things. I’m not paid to run the Charlbury website and I sure as heck am not spending my free time refereeing a national Brexit argument without pay. There are many things I would rather do, including putting my head through a plate-glass window and stuffing Carolina Reapers behind my eyeballs.

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 16:22

"The forum is not the way to contact the site admins. Use the contact page instead."

"Politics is a rough old game" - Sir John Major 

No-one makes us read "the Debate" section or indeed any other part of the Forum.  We all have choices.  If it upsets you, don't look at it.

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 16:06

The thin-skinned false outrage is getting really dull now.

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 16:03

Well, there you go again; another 'angry attack'. Seems nobody can have an opinion if it does not concur with Mr Epps. Note to Admin: might be time to pull this thread as it becoming a platform for one voice.

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 15:31

I’m with Gareth. 
Knows his stuff, and speaks his mind. 
I like that. 

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 15:20

Your personalised abuse says a lot about you, Phil.  Not about me.

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 14:08

Gareth, I think that what people are frustrated or annoyed by is your apparent belief that you are the 'Guardian of the Truth'. Whenever anybody challenges your opinion, your response is always an angry attack.

I understand that you are experienced in the world of politics and, therefore, have a wealth of knowledge that most of us do not possess, but, can you not  treat the opinions of other people with more respect?

I look forward to your response.

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 12:47

Janet & Veronica you've summed up why I left the thread!

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 08:35

Gareth 

 I wasn't lecturing. I was simply making a suggestion. And if you note, I did edit to make it more secular. 

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 08:33 (last edited on Tue 15 Dec 2020, 16:21)

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Mon 14 Dec 2020, 08:30

I must say I do enjoy reading the latest instalment of this debate, but why must Gareth be so angry and aggressive in his comments.  I’m sure Freud would have something to say about that.

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 07:48 (last edited on Wed 16 Dec 2020, 07:30)

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Sun 13 Dec 2020, 22:38

Well said Janet :)

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 22:05

Time for the Serenity Prayer (slightly edited)?? Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. 

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 16:20 (last edited on Wed 16 Dec 2020, 07:30)

Phil - sorry you don’t like me pointing out someone is lying.

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 16:10

Agree with Matthew. As the current situation evolves, this debate page becomes increasingly futile and irrelevant. 

Now that Tony has dropped out, wouldn't it be better for Gareth and Carl to carry on privately and stop inflicting this bickering on the rest of us?

In the words of John Wayne: "Get off yer horse and drink yer milk".

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 15:55 (last edited on Wed 16 Dec 2020, 07:30)

.

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 15:20

Can we at least agree that Brexit is very divisive ha, ha!?

Europe and our place in it used to divide just the Conservative party. Now it divides the whole nation. Great stuff!

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 15:14

So the Royal Navy doesn’t currently patrol the English Channel? Even though the official website says they do? I give up...

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 15:06 (last edited on Wed 16 Dec 2020, 07:31)

.

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 14:41

Gareth,

from the official Royal Navy website:

OVERSEAS PATROL SQUADRON

UNITED KINGDOM

The mission of the Overseas Patrol Squadron is to patrol the fishery limits of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, protecting the British fishing industry and safeguarding the nation’s maritime economy.

What are we doing?

The Overseas Patrol Squadron is the oldest front-line squadron in the Royal Navy. With a small headquarters staff based at Portsmouth Naval Base, the OPS is made up of four River-class offshore patrol vessels and one helicopter.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/operations/united-kingdom/overseas-patrol-squadron

Ok so we’ve established that the RN already patrol the English Channel or is the MOD/ Royal Navy telling lies?

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 12:05 (last edited on Sun 13 Dec 2020, 15:31)

Oh dear, we are now just copying and pasting the lies from leave.eu without engaging brain.

This is extra money, not to replace CAP subsidies, but to manage the crisis created because the easy and advantageous deal Johnson, Gove and the other con merchants told us would happen, hasn’t.

Exactly the same as the falsehood that the Royal Navy needs to patrol the Channel at present: it doesn’t.

Happy to debate issues of substance, but I’ll call a lie a lie.

(Or a deranged Trump conspiracy theory about the US election, a deranged Trump conspiracy theory, for that matter.  Let’s just examine the extraordinary statement that “I’ve often wondered...when Boris or Trump or Brexit or anyone/ anything else wins, why it’s always BLAME THE RUSSIANS! Russian influence! But when Biden wins it’s accepted outright.”.  Pure conspiracy theory nonsense, given the evidence of Russian interference in 2016 in the UK and the USA, and Johnson’s efforts to suppress the evidence in the former.  It’s as if the poster has been brainwashed into thinking that Russian conspiracy theories are a good thing.  Rants about Bill Gates next?)

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 11:41

Gareth,

good news that the government has committed to spending billions to ‘prop’ up agriculture and manufacturing. That’s what they said they would do and the anti Brexit propaganda machine said they wouldn’t.

The ‘propping up’ you refer to is money which will now come directly from HM Treasury, via DEFRA to UK farmers. It replaces the UKs contribution to the EU and then the 50% coming back as subsidies

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 11:36 (last edited on Sun 13 Dec 2020, 11:36)

Hannen,

there have been no threats to blow anyone out of the water. Do you not think that RN vessels patrol the English Channel already? Any country has a right to protect its international waters, which is what they will be once all this has been finalised. The 4 RN vessels will be used for policing the English Channel and NOT for hostilities.

Listen to what former Admiral Lord West (a Labour peer) said about the issue. I think he knows a little bit more about the duties and responsibilities of the RN than we do or any of the newspapers.

Yet again over zealous reporting by the media

Sun 13 Dec 2020, 11:27

Well, I know that the French and English haven't always seen eye to eye but  threatening to blow them out of the water?!

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 22:54 (last edited on Tue 15 Dec 2020, 16:21)

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Sat 12 Dec 2020, 21:46

And I missed this gem from Gareth...

“(Let’s not even mention the Russian interference or the systematic misleading of the electorate)”

“Truth is so inconvenient in this debate, isn’t it?”

I’ve often wondered...when Boris or Trump or Brexit or anyone/ anything else wins, why it’s always BLAME THE RUSSIANS! Russian influence! But when Biden wins it’s accepted outright. Where was the Russian influence (or Ukrainian) there?

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 21:36

Gareth,

“democracy prevailed in 2017 when the country elected a Parliament that deprived Theresa May of her majority, didn’t it?”

What about the 2019 election when the country elected a Conservative PM with a healthy majority of 80 who promised to get Brexit done? Theresa May had no hopes of winning any kind of a majority whatever the circumstances. She just wasn’t cut out to be a vote winner.

And Charlie, I just want to say to you (Janet mentioned it further down the thread) that there was never a referendum to join the European Union in the first place. The EU was created as a result of Major signing us up to the Maastricht treaty in 1993 which is when the EEC ceased to exist and the Brussels power grab began. Subsequent years and decades saw various other treaties simply signed off in all EU countries without any form of referenda. Is that democracy?

I still can’t grasp what it is that some people find so obsessive about the EU. It’s already fading. The rise of populism has damaged the EU and will continue to do so. Get over it, move on. We are out!

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 20:09 (last edited on Sat 12 Dec 2020, 20:10)

I don't understand why some believe the there are polar opposites of opinion and no medium ground? 

The truth about what's happened with politics is not personally inconvenient for me, though I do think it's shameful for all of us as an electorate. We've had  a referendum without any of the consequences properly thought out, and one so close in its result that it's created a divide across the nation. Then a weak government, a flustered election and shady deals (see Gareth we agree), then a shambles of an opposition party who eventually lost their core supporters resulting in a majority no-deal supporting government. I won't even mention the other parties as I know those things mustn't be challenged in these parts ;-). And I haven't mentioned the financial corruption, covid, or many more things that could be said.

The petty bickering, insults, put downs between politicians is just tiring to hear and unconstructive (I'm including Liz here (gasps)). Though how do we change politics for something that works for us all? Proportional representation, 'none of the àbove' candidates, transferable voting system? That's my optimisn but it's not bright right now..

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 12:02 (last edited on Mon 14 Dec 2020, 08:36)

Charlie - democracy prevailed in 2017 when the country elected a Parliament that deprived Theresa May of her majority, didn’t it?

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 10:58

Hamish - I will agree with you on one thing, which is that democracy must triumph. BUT, when the referendum majority in favour of Brexit was SO small, combined with the previously mentioned LIES peddled by the Brexiters, it leaves me feeling as if the democratic process was violated in this instance. 

It is easy to be wise with the benefit of hindsight; Trump has - in some ways - benefited the American people, because he has abused his position SO much that a new "weapon" has come on the scene: the "fact checker".

If we could have had fact checkers during the referendum, maybe, just maybe the result would have been different.

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 10:38

This is the point, Withdrawal Agreement one year ago, which was a long time after the actual referendum. Too long was spent arguing the democratic decision  and the continued political bickering with it. Trump is laughed at for trying to overthrow their nation's vote but that is what happened in this country for too long after the referendum. 

An overhaul in our electoral system would be great in my opinion thoughh I'm no optimist here.

I do wonder if Scotland was to hold another referendum on independence would the SNP just ignore the outcome (if not in the favour) and try to leave anyway through legal appeals - it does seem the way politics happens.

n

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 09:30 (last edited on Sat 12 Dec 2020, 09:37)

Yes, Hamish, we moved on from the Withdrawal Agreement a year ago.  Since then Boris Johnson and his crack team have been working on a trade deal with the EU, promising us it was "oven ready", blabbering on about "Australian Rules" (AKA no deal)  and eventually having to admit that they do not have a clue what they are doing. But who is surprised? When Robert Courts is made Transport Minister, that tells you quite a lot about the calibre of this government. I thought that Chris Patten summed it up very neatly on the "Today" programme this morning - do listen to that.   And if one image will stay with me forever that summarises our situation, it is the clip of Boris Johnson with Ursula von der Leyen this week in Brussels. Who was in charge?  Well, it definitely wasn't our prime minister who looked completely out of his depth - like a primary school kid with his teacher. Let's just hope that he manages to pull a rabbit out of the hat in the next few days, but don't hold your breath.

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 09:07 (last edited on Wed 16 Dec 2020, 07:31)

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Sat 12 Dec 2020, 09:02 (last edited on Sat 12 Dec 2020, 09:02)

Gareth, had the house backed this deal  (or its other rounds!) https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/29/mps-reject-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-third-time would we be still be at the 11th hour with no deal? I'm not saying I liked that deal and I'm using the word 'deal' in the same way that all mainstream media did. Though this was one fork in the path that leads is here. However, I won't try to belittle your sources of fact as that's as productive as parliament debating Brexit without a strong majority government.

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 07:20 (last edited on Sat 12 Dec 2020, 07:45)

Hamish - Parliament hasn’t had any deal to vote on.

You and others need to check where you are getting information from.  While the Daily Hate Mail talks up gunboats in the Channel, here’s a prescient article from last year that reminds us the Prime Minister’s financial backers have bet against the interests of the country and have particular influence.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/29/ex-top-civil-servant-hammond-was-right-to-query-no-deal-backers?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Fri 11 Dec 2020, 23:10

The obvious conclusion one draws from the saga is that using a referendum as the vehicle to decide a complex issue is problematic. We have a parliamentary democracy and politicians are paid (as our representatives) to make these sorts of decisions on our behalf. Its an utter failure then to simply turn the question back to us.

Fri 11 Dec 2020, 20:19

Indeed. And politics has got in the way of seeing through the democratic wish of the nation - whether or not we agree with it, the political bickering has squandered the time to negotiate. Parliament was offered a deal before, though it wasn't acceptable to the opposition and now we are likely to have no deal - all sides are to blame for the twisted path we have been forced down so blaming each other is as futile as the last few years of the theatrics in Parliament.

Fri 11 Dec 2020, 19:59

Well said Janet. 

Fri 11 Dec 2020, 18:04

The last sentence of the Liam Fox quote in Gareth's last post seems to me to sum up the current situation - politics is getting in the way of economics. And that is precisely what created the problem in the first place. The UK joined the European Economic Community, an economic body, and not the European Union, a political body.  

Fri 11 Dec 2020, 15:12

Of the 53% some will get what they asked for; some what they deserve and a few may be disappointed.

Of the 47% most will be disappointed with what has been inflicted on us in the name of democracy.

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 23:59

Perhaps this is the opportunity to really "take back control": make our democratic institutions genuinely work to the call of the electorate rather than the political establishment. Discuss.

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 21:01 (last edited on Fri 11 Dec 2020, 10:25)

Meanwhile we plunge into an Afghan situation (there is no cooperation in the relationship with the EU - it is yet another lie to call the cooperative no-deal relationship Australia enjoys with the EU anything like what a no deal here would look like).

So much for ‘the easiest deal…

Long post - click to read full text

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 19:51

Tony – I didn’t see any personal attacks in Gareth’s previous posting (unless I am one of the ‘crude out-of-date caricatures’, which is possible).

Gareth – please stop rising to the bait. What we want is debate, not angrily calling each other out.

I have enjoyed the robust exchange of views on this thread, and would hate for it to be closed down simply because we all got too argumentative.

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 17:58 (last edited on Fri 18 Dec 2020, 17:17)

A pity you don’t like being called out - and whine about non-existent attacks.  Getting hungry and grumpy waiting for your oven ready deal?

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 17:00

Gareth back with the invective & personal attacks!

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 16:11 (last edited on Wed 16 Dec 2020, 16:20)

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Thu 10 Dec 2020, 16:10 (last edited on Thu 10 Dec 2020, 16:14)

Well, the only category in Carl’s list that I would fall into would have to be the fourth, though it would be very wrong to say that I will be “over the moon if Brexit was a catastrophe”.

I have said from the beginning that Brexit would be calamitous for Britain, and subsequent developments have given me no reason to change my mind since then.

However, why on Earth would I be jubilant about it?

This is my country too, and it saddens me to think what misery lies ahead of us all.

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 13:47 (last edited on Thu 10 Dec 2020, 13:52)

That may be true of this Forum.  But there is another group of people and unfortunately they are the ones who call the shots.  They are the people who voted leave, and who will not be happy with anything that looks remotely like a compromise. Most of those are on the Tory back benches, some are in the government. Which is why we are where we are.

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 13:06

Again a good summary Carl

I'm firmly in camp 2

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 12:52

There have been 4 types of people contributing to this debate:

Those who voted leave and want Brexit to be a success

Those who voted remain but want Brexit to be a success

Those who voted remain, accept the result but don’t like the result and secretly want Brexit to be a catastrophe 

And of course those who voted remain, won’t accept the result, hate the result and would be over the moon if Brexit was a catastrophe

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 12:25

Lot of emotion on this thread and 'interpretation' of other people's views, so thought I'd give my potted history of Brexit

I voted to remain because I believe in free trade and thought leaving would be financially detrimental, which outweighed my concern about bureaucracy and federalism

However when majority voted to leave I thought the democratic vote should be honoured

Parliament spent 3 years voting against every proposal without coming up with an alternative, such as a second referendum which I would not have objected to, or a co ordinated approach to EU negotiations

The parties went into the December election with the following policies

Tories Get Brexit Done

Labour Referendum but no commitment as to which side they would support and led by an anti EU leader

Lib Dems Revoke

The result was the closest to a second referendum we were going to get due to MPs prevarication

The EU refused to give us the same deal as they had given Canada, despite us being members of their club for nearly 50 years and contributing significantly both financially & intellectually

Inevitable result is no deal which will damage UK and smaller EU countries

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 07:32

Any one spotted Boris Johnson’s “oven ready deal” that he promised the British electorate at last years election? I think I am right in believing that this promise helped give him 43% of the UK vote and a 80 seat majority in the House of Commons and as a result we are where we are as a country. My advice would be not to invite a certain Boris Johnson round to cook your Christmas dinner with one of his “oven ready deals”. Happy new year everyone. 

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 19:07

I rather agree with Richard’s comment that “there’s a difference between ‘accepting the decision of the majority’ and agreeing with it”

When, during the campaign, Nigel Farage was asked whether he’d accept the decision of the referendum if it went against his platform, he said, quite bluntly, no, he would continue to fight.

And yet us remainers were supposed to just roll over and accept what was not only a very close referendum, but also based far more on ‘giving it to the elite’ than about whether we should stay in the EU or not.

During the referendum campaign, the Brexiteers told us too many lies (or, at best, wildly optimistic forecasts) about how easy the process would be, and how wonderful the future would be. It has become very clear that they were completely deluded.

And now we face the prospect of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit, which will be ruinous to Britain, or whatever is left of it after the more sensible countries split themselves away and rejoin the EU.

I have two Scottish grandfathers, both coal miners as it happens. Maybe in a few years I can get back into the EU through that route.

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 18:24 (last edited on Wed 16 Dec 2020, 16:21)

Anything over 1000 is regarded (professionally) as a representative sample to within 3%.  The gap is consistently more than that.

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 17:54

Gareth,

I've just had a look and as interesting polling data is, I don't think a sample hovering around the 1700 mark represents "a clear majority of the population"

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 16:56

Not often do I agree with Mister Morgan, but if Scotland left the UK my origins would allow me to become Scottish, so when they join the EU (as they surely will do), the membership advantages would be restored. But it may take a while ...

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 16:50

Graham, there’s a difference between “accepting the decision of the majority” and agreeing with it. I accept that millions of people have bought Abba records, but I still can’t stand them.

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 16:36 (last edited on Wed 16 Dec 2020, 07:29)

At least one of your statements is wrong, Graham.

Carl - it took me 5 seconds to find the evidence via Google.  You should try it.  The polling tracker is at https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

PS Richard - well said.  

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 16:35

Gareth,

Calm down dear! You're general rant doesn't make a lot of sense but just a couple of queries...

Firstly, "although polling tells us that a clear majority of the population now believe that leaving the EU is the wrong thing to do"

Where is the evidence for this please?

Secondly, why English nationalists? 

I recall Wales having a leave majority too

Third, "Now it's clear that Messrs Morgan, Perkins and Wisker think that the vote should be denied to those who disagree with them, but tough - that was democracy too." 

Please indicate where I said (or even implied) that the vote should be denied to anyone?

And finally, "The Brexit supporters are also those who claimed down this thread their own Government's analysis of what will happen on 1 January is a fiction - the point at which the debate descended."

I expressed my doubt on the source of the information you provided. A nameless Twitter blogger 

I still don't get the bit about the golf clubs...

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 16:25

Irrespective of what I voted, Mr Epps, the decision was made to leave the EU. So I suggest that the people who voted to stay in accept the decision of the majority, after all that's democracy. And no I didnot break any windows of the golf club, (a) I do not play golf, and (b) I am not a child running home saying "It's s my ball and I'm going. It's because I have an opinion, be it wrong from your point of view. Just accept the result. 

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 16:01 (last edited on Mon 14 Dec 2020, 08:29)

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Wed 9 Dec 2020, 15:39

I don't know why there is concern about Scottish Independence. If they want to leave the UK then I think most English people would not have a problem.

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 15:25

I have come to the conclusion that most of our politicians are self righteous and like the sound of their own voices. Like the old joke, How do you know when a Politician is lying? Thier lips are moving. 

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 15:19

Mark, the people of Wales may well follow Scotland’s lead. 

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 14:53

Yes good piece Mark.

I think that once Brexit has been settled people will move on and the extremes that have dominated our political parties for the past 4 years will be replaced by more moderate leaders. I believe that politics will go back to being a mundane process that occurs in the background like it did before the Brexit and Scottish independence referendum. I mean, come on! Who can honestly say that they were interested in day-to-day politics 10 years ago? Hardly anyone...

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 14:22

Well said Mark.

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 14:02

Mark a rational & sensible summary of the position

I hope Starmer steps up to the mark!

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 13:53

We are re-debating last year's questions. We need to move on.

1. We have left the EU, and despite what some might hope, there is absolutely no prospect for the UK to rejoin in the foreseeable future. There is no substantial majority in the UK for it, and the EU…

Long post - click to read full text

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 13:30

That's right Graham.

The Treaty of Nice was ratified by Ireland in 2002 in a second referendum after our former EU masters didn't like them voting 'no' the first time round

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 12:45

Carl & Graham I couldn't have put it better myself!

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 11:54

So, basically a Referendum is when you can keep having a vote until you get the majority you require!? 

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 11:26

Gareth,

You seem to get away with throwing insults where others do not. For the record, I don't copy and paste from 'Leave-voting sewers'. Contrary to what was speculated after the referendum, people who voted leave do have the ability to hold informed opinions. Your tactic is to shout people…

Long post - click to read full text

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 09:47 (last edited on Mon 14 Dec 2020, 09:20)

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Wed 9 Dec 2020, 09:35 (last edited on Wed 9 Dec 2020, 09:40)

No problem Richard should not have allowed myself to be provoked by Gareth Epps language!

Carl you have again summarised the main point well which is that the majority voted to leave in a referendum and MPs and leavers tried to thwart the democratic will of the people. MPs weren't even capable of agreeing to a second referendum so the December election was primarily about Brexit 

The millions of northern working class people who had been patronised by the Elite and told for 4 years they were wrong and that Brexit would be a disaster gave their opinion again

It's ignoring the democratic will of the people that has tarnished our reputation and made a deal more difficult

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 09:31

Tony, this is the board for more robust debate but it is not for insults. I’ve edited out your comment.

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 09:28

Unless you are Nicola Sturgeon or a Lib Dem parliamentarian who doesn't like the result of the first one...

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 09:18

A General Election is a vote where the country has the option to change its mind within 5 years. A referendum is a vote where the country doesn't have the option to change its mind for at least a generation.

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 08:33

So what is the difference between a Referendum and a General Election? 

Wed 9 Dec 2020, 07:39 (last edited on Mon 14 Dec 2020, 08:34)

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Wed 9 Dec 2020, 07:27

Ok a lot to catch up on here...

Gareth, I take it you weren’t local when the referendum took place as west Oxfordshire was only 53.7% remain. All regions voted leave with the exception of London and Scotland which ironically were the same regions which voted against joining the EEC…

Long post - click to read full text

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 23:06 (last edited on Wed 9 Dec 2020, 09:31)

So Gareth you've conveniently avoided the direct questions about democracy After your intervention we've moved from a reasonable discussion to one full of personal invective I'm therefore going to retire and just say [deleted – Richard]

Richard happy to debate the financial Independance question on a seperate thread

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 22:42 (last edited on Tue 8 Dec 2020, 22:46)

As some of you can’t tell apart a General Election from a referendum, it is probably time to go to bed.

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 22:25

My football club won the FA Cup in 1988.

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 22:24

“Meanwhile back in the real world If one area wants to leave then good luck to them as every Independant forecast shows they would be financially finished”

Umm…

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 22:20 (last edited on Tue 8 Dec 2020, 22:23)

So Gareth you continue the invective by referring to my inferiority complex and knowing 'what it is' Where did that personal attack come from

Did you agree with the policy of revoke which basically told the people who voted leave that they were not intelligent enough to make that decision

The election was predominantly about Brexit and millions of working class voters ignored the Liberal elite and confirmed they wanted to leave the EU

That to,my mind is democracy

I would totally dispute your contention that you've resisted being condesending

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 22:19

Handbags. 

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 22:07 (last edited on Mon 14 Dec 2020, 08:27)

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Tue 8 Dec 2020, 21:50 (last edited on Tue 8 Dec 2020, 22:09)

Gareth I think you started the personal  invective language and continue it with weaselling and your other condescending and superior language 

If you think the Lib Dem election result was acceptable then you are deluded

If you believe that the democratic vote to leave the EU in the referendum and the election should just be ignored as the Lib Dens proposed then you are the one supporting a fascist state

The action I support is the democratic vote of the British population 

Meanwhile back in the real world If one area wants to leave then good luck to them as every Independant forecast shows they would be financially finished

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 21:40 (last edited on Mon 14 Dec 2020, 08:32)

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Tue 8 Dec 2020, 21:28

I’ve never seen a dolphin capable of dictation, let alone a whale.

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 21:26

It seems that a number of people want preportional representation when it comes to a General Election, however the vote to Leave or Remain on the membership of the EU was done as preportional representation and suprise suprise didn't like the outcome.  Back in the early 70's I missed out on the vote to join the EEC and at that time it meant a free market within the member states. But it appears (to me) to be a Totalitarian whale dictating rules, laws and regulations.  Don't get me wrong there has been some great ideas to come out of it.  If I go to Italy, France or anywhere within Europe I want to enjoy the local cultures of that country,  not to eat a German Bratwurst made in Belgium served up in Italy.

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 20:57

Carl, if you look to Pyongyang you may find the kind of journalism you're looking for.

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 20:12

Tony said liberal and liberal elite. Small "l". Not the Lib Dems. Also I don't think he was weaseling. 

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 19:06 (last edited on Fri 18 Dec 2020, 17:01)

Tony, feel free to personalise general remarks all you want - I have not held any role in a political party for some years.  

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 18:38 (last edited on Tue 8 Dec 2020, 18:39)

Gareth I neither voted leave or Tory However I believe in democracy and the majority voted twice for Brexit As a liberal I assume you supported the policy of revoke which basically told the ‘uneducated masses’ that the Liberal elite knew better The result was that your party was destroyed as a viable party so your condesention and superiority is not surprising

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 16:11 (last edited on Mon 14 Dec 2020, 08:30)

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Tue 8 Dec 2020, 16:05 (last edited on Tue 8 Dec 2020, 16:07)

Oh dear, we are failing to separate fantasy from reality again.

Deal just agreed on Ireland border

There’s really no more pathetic sight than the Liberal elite patronising the electorate and ignoring the electorate with a policy of revoke

Gareth up to your intervention the thread had been relatively civilized!

Tue 8 Dec 2020, 15:49 (last edited on Mon 14 Dec 2020, 08:28)

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Tue 8 Dec 2020, 11:53

In my view a couple of comments, from people who are obviously not xenophobic or racist, sum up the situation

Carl A Perkins

The negotiators on the EU side have behaved appallingly throughout the whole process. They thought they were on the cusp of victory and getting all their concessions until the electorate (once again) expressed their opinion on the matter and gave Boris Johnson a big parliamentary majority to get this matter resolved once and for all.

The only reason that the EU is playing so hard is that they are terrified of other countries following us out. I'm reading many reports of discontent from Italy, Poland and Hungary

Why are a small group of people so desperate for Brexit to be a disaster? Why not grow up and get behind everyone else in wanting your country to make a success of it?

Phil Morgan

Macron is really pushing us towards 'no-deal' for his own political ends. It will backfire because it will enrage both left and right in this country and therefore empower Boris. Worst result!

There is no reason for the EU to deny us the deal that they offered to Canada, other than that given by Carl

If the vote had been to remain and leavers had rejected the result the way the remainers have, there would have been uproar from the media

And to cap it all Labour and the Lib Dems went into the December election with policies that were anathema to the majority of the working class electorate, resulting in their political destruction

No wonder we are approaching a no deal Brexit!

Mon 7 Dec 2020, 21:27 (last edited on Mon 7 Dec 2020, 21:28)

Thanks Carl.

Agree  - one of the reasons I found the last referendum so hard was because I couldn't find out what the facts were!

In 1975 I voted to join the "Common Market".  It seemed to me to be a "no brainer", as we were promised cheaper food/travel and so on.  Not sure we ever got those.

The Common Market morphed into something unrecognisable - whether better or worse I don't know.

Anyway, I'm too old to be gadding about and certainly have no desire to leave these shores again.  This is a fantastic island for the variety of scenery and culture, and one doesn't have the bother of exchange rates and different languages (although I have always enjoyed attempting to speak in "other tongues").

Not being "funny" but what is "Viz"?  I'm sure I should know!

Mon 7 Dec 2020, 21:04

Hannen,

I agree that that WW2 saw a great use of propaganda. The same can be said about the Great War, Napoleonic Wars and even smaller encounters in Africa during campaigns such as the Sudan. It is (in my view) the ‘home’ media’s job to keep morale up and people going.

All we’ve had for as long as I care to remember is doom and gloom from all corners of the media. No wonder morale is at an all time low.

It’s funny how all newspapers used to report on the mismanagement of the EU before the referendum and now most deem it as a golden beacon being taken away from us.

Remember when David Cameron went to Brussels to renegotiate the UKs terms and was subsequently laughed out of the room? I base that on the media doing a great job in exposing his bad hands before he’d even got there.

The media play an integral part in domestic politics but they should be a little more careful in exposing secrets and weaknesses to the world.

I’m fed up with the lot of them. I’ve finally allowed by Times subscription to lapse. I stick to the Viz now

Mon 7 Dec 2020, 19:06

Agree with Gareth, again.

All academic now I think.  We are where we are.  We'll just have to get on with it.

Carl, I think you'll find that propaganda flourished in the 2nd WW.  (Think Goebbels and Churchill). It's use was a major source for much of Orwell's "1984".

Mon 7 Dec 2020, 17:34 (last edited on Mon 14 Dec 2020, 08:27)

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Mon 7 Dec 2020, 15:52

Obviously mentioning fish was a red herring as its led to discussion of Suez, the last time the French supported the British!

Mon 7 Dec 2020, 15:47

Gareth,

With respect, this is an article by a mainstream media outlet (and we all know what they've been doing for the past 4 years) and NOT an official government dossier. 

The only official document released by the Cabinet Office that I can find is titled 'Reasonable Worst Case Scenario for borders at the end of the transition period on 31 December 2020'. 

All of the points listed in Robert Pestons article (a staunch remainer and long term critic of the Conservative Party) look more like irresponsible scaremongering than official government analysis.

Peston mentions that the 34 page document was handed to him by someone using the twitter handle @mi6rogue - is that a credible government source?

@mi6rogue is an ardent Boris critic by the looks of his twitter feed and the link to the document displays extracts from some form of document with no author, date or source displayed. It also flicks through each page very quickly.

Peston goes on to assert that "a government source confirmed the official sensitive document, which was written in September, still underpins contingency planning." - Really? What would an 'official sensitive document' be doing circulating the rounds on twitter!?

I often wonder how WW2 would have panned out if the media around then displayed a fraction of the vitriol that the media do nowadays. Can you imagine it?

British airfields EMPTY

Civilians STARVING

London ON ITS KNEES

British Army TRAPPED IN FRANCE

Mon 7 Dec 2020, 07:59

In the interests of separating fantasy from reality, here is the Government’s own internal guide about what will happen on 1 January, under all scenarios.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-06/the-12-reasonable-worst-case-outcomes-if-brexit-talks-collapse?fbclid=IwAR1xThZDt3A_cbY3JeOj1loqrnMMILTUzGbU-eQfZsRPF0yLoXFta3TBZ5w

Mon 7 Dec 2020, 07:20 (last edited on Mon 7 Dec 2020, 07:34)

Can you steal things that aren’t owned?  The UK supported an open seas policy at that time.  They didn’t recognise territorial waters in those days.  The policy was based on historic patterns of fishing.  Maybe another mistake but the English didn’t like the fish they could catch off their shores.  They still don’t which is another mistake.  

Sun 6 Dec 2020, 22:00

That's very interesting Alice, thanks for posting. I had no idea - the debate appears to be EU stole the fish because UK wasn't on the ball. Everything appears to be more complicated with Brexit than first meets the eye.

Sun 6 Dec 2020, 16:31 (last edited on Sun 6 Dec 2020, 16:34)

Some dates seem to be needed for your discussion.

1972-1976 - Cod Wars with Iceland.  That was where UK's major fishing fleets could be found.

1973 UK joined EEC; 1975 UK referendum on membership of EEC.

1983 The Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) came into force - 10 years after UK joined in 1973 - based on historic fishing grounds.  UK had lost its historic fishing grounds on account of Iceland declaring a 200 mile exclusive economic zone to reduce over-fishing.

CFP was based on quotas not geographical areas.  In 1980's & 90's the UK Government attached those quotas to boats and so made them a tradeable commodity.  Terrible mistake.  No other government was so silly.

So the UK fishermen sold their quotas.  Hurrahh - loads of dosh.  

2019 - 29% of UK's fishing quota in the hands of 5 families named in the Sunday Times Rich List.  13% of UK's fishing quotas sold to Dutch, Spanish & Icelandic 'quota hoppers'.  

I have been asking for the last 4 years - are residents of the UK happy to steal back those quotas that have been sold?  Reminds me a bit of the Suez Canal incident. Or will we as UK tax payers have to buy back what went to private profit?

Sun 6 Dec 2020, 09:39 (last edited on Sun 6 Dec 2020, 09:40)

Phil I think you've summed it up perfectly Macron sees an advantage for France in a no deal Brexit and is not bothered about the damage it will do to the smaller EU countries. As I said this is similar to the damage done to Greece. As Carl says there is increasing dissatisfaction with the EU in many European countries

Liz the French did not allow a 10 year transition period for the UK fishing industry in 1973 Again they were quite happy to see communities in Grimsby etc damaged

I voted remain because I believe in free trade but if there was a referendum tomorrow I would vote to leave On whatever basis was available as I agree with Carl's comments about how the EU have behaved

Sat 5 Dec 2020, 22:08

The most up to date information about public attitudes to the EU across the continent is probably at Pew Research. A slightly old (18 months ago) study.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/03/19/europeans-credit-eu-with-promoting-peace-and-prosperity-but-say-brussels-is-out-of-touch-with-its-citizens/

Sat 5 Dec 2020, 21:39

The most in-depth analysis of UK fishing industry I've seen was produced by Greenpeace which looked at how the fishing rights have ended up as they are. I looked up the link which is attached.

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2019/03/07/fishing-brexit-uk-fleetwood/ ;

Sat 5 Dec 2020, 15:52

Didn’t it take Greenland 3 years to negotiate their exit, and all they had was fish. Whereas we don’t even have a much of a fishing industry any more. I caught 5 mackerel off a boat on holiday in Cornwall this year. I believe that is the UK’s quota all accounted for.

Sat 5 Dec 2020, 14:51 (last edited on Sat 5 Dec 2020, 14:57)

If France had decided to Frexit, and wanted to protect their offshore waters and that meant our fishermen would see their jobs in peril or at least severely limited, would you regard it as unreasonable if Johnson demanded a 10 year transition? May be 10 years is too long, but I do have some sympathy with Macron on this - and by the way he is also speaking for the Danes and the Belgians. 

Sat 5 Dec 2020, 14:17

It alarms me that I find myself agreeing with Tony Morgan (again). Macron is really pushing us towards 'no-deal' for his own political ends. It will backfire because it will enrage both left and right in this country and therefore empower Boris. Worst result!

Also, on Matt's point: the Tier 2 decision for virtually the whole of England's pubs is utterly indefensible. And we mustn't forget our clubs. Our 3 clubs: Cricket, Bowls and the newly opened Football each have ample space for distancing and safe procedures and yet they are blanketed by this irrational policy.

Can't get a Scotch Egg for love nor money.....

Sat 5 Dec 2020, 13:44

Brexit trade talks reached stalemate on Friday night after the EU was accused of making a "ridiculous" demand for 10 years of unfettered access to Britain's fishing waters as the price of a deal.

Fri 4 Dec 2020, 22:58

I agree with you again Matt. I don’t understand why the government is penalising a sector that was already struggling before Covid. I can jump on a train to Oxford tomorrow and have my hair cut, walk through a busy shopping centre, go the gym and go and watch a football match with 1,999 other people! But I can’t go and have a local socially distanced pint in any of the pubs in Charlbury that have done an exemplary job in between lockdowns in keeping people safe and happy and as far as I know have had 0 covid transmissions reported!

Fri 4 Dec 2020, 20:37

Tony, it’s  a date! As long as the government doesn’t succeed in its undoubted aim of eliminating alcohol consumption and with it the pub trade! 

Fri 4 Dec 2020, 17:45

Sounds like a pint together for the 3 of us when the rose opens!

Fri 4 Dec 2020, 17:39

I also agree with that Matt

Fri 4 Dec 2020, 16:02

Agree with that as well Matt

Fri 4 Dec 2020, 15:01

"What I don't like is huge political organisations squandering taxpayer money and imposing unfair rules and regulations to further advance the status of certain countries within the project."

What I don't like is (a Tory government) squandering taxpayer money and imposing unfair rules and regulations.....

Fri 4 Dec 2020, 12:46

Very well expressed Carl

I would also point out that two thirds of constituencies voted to leave, but MPs ignored this mandate and tried to block the democratic will, culminating in the Lib Dems policy of revoke, without even another referendum

Fri 4 Dec 2020, 12:28 (last edited on Fri 4 Dec 2020, 12:37)

Charlie,

A very small minority of people voted for Brexit on the basis of far right propaganda and it's downright offensive to assume that everyone did so. I personally spent months researching into the operations of the European Union before deciding which way to cast my vote. I voted out…

Long post - click to read full text

Fri 4 Dec 2020, 11:52 (last edited on Fri 4 Dec 2020, 15:09)

Tony, the tragedy of Brexit was caused largely by a covertly xenophobic government which told lies to the people about the so-called "benefits" that it would bring, and which also covertly encouraged far-right bodies such as UKIP and Britain First to peddle their lies and propaganda to persuade the electorate to vote in favour of it by about as small a majority that you could imagine. 

You could tell from their behaviour after the referendum that the Brexiters could not believe the result. It will, I fear, prove to be a tragedy for our nation, as witnessed by the blind panic of various industrial bodies such as the CBI, as well as many sectors of industry itself. But of course many of the Brexiters within the government have unimaginable wealth which they have safely secreted overseas, so that they will not be affected.

Regarding the Common Fisheries policy, this was "cobbled together" by Ted Heath and Valéry Giscard d'Estaing and their compatriots. It was never perfect, but the main result was the lack of control over some types of fishing vessels which ruined the fishing grounds and helped cause the cod shortage (for example). That is in contrast to the Common Agricultural Policy, which was designed to help the small farmer - and thence the countryside - and that was why many British farmers (who liked ripping out hedgerows to make enormous fields in which to grow corn more cheaply) disliked it so much. 

For me, the EU has every right to bargain hard. And I wish we could turn the clock back and either negate the referendum, or have it again without the lies that the Brexiters promulgated. But none of that can happen. And as a result the UK will be deep in the brown stuff before long.

Fri 4 Dec 2020, 10:55 (last edited on Fri 4 Dec 2020, 12:47)

The French vetoed Britain's entry to the Common Market twice to give them time to ensure the Common Agriculture Policy benefited French farmers

When we were on the point of joining in 1973 they demanded significant extra access to our fishing waters at the 11th hour to ensure they did not veto us a 3rd time

This destroyed fishing communities such as Grimsby, in a similar manner to the way the single currency destroyed the Greek economy, again to France's advantage

With current talks seemingly moving to a deal the French have intervened again with 11th hour additional requirements that look likely to derail a deal

I think the EU's behaviour since the democratic vote to leave convinced leavers they did not want to be part of a Federal Europe as was evidenced in the December election

It also resulted in remain voters such as myself changing my mind

If we end up with a 'French induced' no deal I think people will be more willing to accept the undoubted problems this would cause to both sides