No Daily Telegraphs so far today (Debate)

Sat 12 Sep 2020, 18:27

Hey Tony, I saw the coverage of the XR protest on the tube too - but my take away was how unpopular the action had been within XR as well. A highly decentralised social movement will make mistakes. 
but having been so frustrated by mainstream media coverage of climate change since I first heard about it at the age of 16, as I and others have said in this thread, this particular action, whilst with unfortunate implications for those who truly live for their daily paper, it was at least striking at those newspaper bosses who have refused to raise the alarm on one of the greatest threats any generation has faced. And compare that to how incessant the reporting of COVID-19 has been. 
All the best, Clare 

Sat 12 Sep 2020, 09:59 (last edited on Sat 12 Sep 2020, 11:04)

We might also have a different opinion if we view the video of the young working man at the tube station telling the older middle class man to get off the top of the train so he could get to work to earn the money to feed his children

No one on this thread has denied the seriousness of climate change, the disagreement is between those who think the ends justify the means and those who think X R actions are not acceptable

Quotes on this thread include 'shot themselves in the foot' and 'no social distancing, very irresponsible & not getting support'

However I guess attitudes are quite entrenched so I'm going to retire from this thread & wait for the next 'interesting joust'!

Fri 11 Sep 2020, 23:17 (last edited on Fri 11 Sep 2020, 23:21)

A different approach, only wish I’d thought of it myself! 

In all those news reports and complaints about them, try replacing ‘climate activists’ with ‘suffragettes’ or ‘civil rights protesters’.  In other words, historically active groups who may have caused disruption or broken (usually minor) laws at the time but whose goals we now think of as givens – well, most of us! And looking back, we may admire their courage – or foolhardiness - and wonder how on earth the powers that were could have treated them so harshly.  As the most right wing Home Secretary in living memory ponders treating XR as an organised crime group, we might ponder what our grandchildren will make of them – and the importance of their goals set against their means – in 50 or 100 years time.  The loss of some paper copies of a few newspapers in 2020 hardly weighs heavy on the scales….

But I do agree there’s been a widespread failure of liberalism that has let in narcissistic populists like Bolsonaro, Trump and ??  Another time!

Fri 11 Sep 2020, 09:28

And while I'm here, can I also commend "The Enemy of the Working Class Travels by Private Jet not Migrant Dinghy", by Zarah Sultana MP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=kOLQhRwNcGQ&feature=emb_title

Well worth a watch.

Fri 11 Sep 2020, 09:26

This video, "It's Time to Overthrow the Oligarchs & Restore Democracy", helps explain why XR protested by blockaded the Torygraph and other newspapers: https://www.patreon.com/posts/its-time-to-40910688

Thu 10 Sep 2020, 19:15

Something similar in The i. about a planned family party for 8 - is that a sufficiently "limited and specific" breach of the law not to matter??  This seriously plot the they've time lost!

Thu 10 Sep 2020, 16:51

Amusing letter in The Times today (ironically one of the publications that was impacted):

"Sir, Surely it is a little harsh for Priti Patel to describe Extinction Rebellion activists as “criminals”, considering that they were breaking the law in a very specific and limited way. Brian South, Shaftesbury, Dorset"

Thu 10 Sep 2020, 14:57

Whilst I empathise with all those who were upset by their regular paper being unavailable for a day, I would agree that this non violent direct action seems to have stimulated attention to the issues that XR protest. And given the challenge of getting balanced reporting on facts of climate change into most mainstream papers over the last decades, it doesn’t seem to me to be an irrelevant action.

 For many years now we have consensus across scientists. A study over 10 years old showed 97% of scientists agree, and since then even some of the most vocal dissenters have accepted it is not only happening but it is caused by human activity and that it is happening faster than earlier science predicted. Recent analysis of multiple studies all over the world show the impacts are happening now and more rapidly. 

Here in Charlbury we had heatwaves, strong winds and heavy rainfall just this summer that is entirely consistent with the types of weather we will get more of with climate change. A warmer atmosphere means stronger winds, more frequent & more extreme weather events

Today the UK’s Climate Assembly produced its report to getting to Net Zero. This was over a 100 people that represent our society (age, regions, class & attitude to climate change ie the don’t believe and the don’t care’s as well as those who want action). Their findings are worth a read: https://www.climateassembly.uk/report/read/executive-summary.html#executive-summary

Not least as they agreed that “Even in a year like this, with country &economy still reeling from coronavirus pandemic, it’s clear that the majority of us feel prioritising Net Zero policy is not only important but achievable, too.”

Thu 10 Sep 2020, 13:00

Well, whatever your view, XR has certainly achieved its objective of raising awareness.

Wed 9 Sep 2020, 17:53

I hesitate to jump into this ring, but feel it’s important we don’t lose sight of what we, or most of us, can agree on

First, that we are facing a huge challenge to pull round the global oil tanker of fossil fuel dependence, and that this will involve wide-reaching…

Long post - click to read full text

Wed 9 Sep 2020, 16:59

Hi Tony - no I wouldn't have any objections at all to a right wing group preventing the printing of the Guardian for one day if they felt that the editorial of the paper had been successful in influencing the Government over a prolonged period.  There is clearly no chance of that.  I understand that XR were preventing the printing of the Sun - a Murdoch paper.  Unfortunately, the Times & the Telegraph were printed at the same place so they suffered the same minor inconvenience.

I take it you think I am a young, XR, Guardian reader?  Wrong on all accounts I'm afraid.  

We are all inconvenienced by strikes and peaceful protests.  I remember the 1960's & 1970's clearly.  What I find deeply scary is why the country has gone into a moral outrage at the minor inconvenience of one day's loss of newspaper as a consequence of a climate action group.  To the point that the Government is considering declaring it an 'organised crime group'.  But when another group of people intimidate & harass folk and stop trade they are silent.

Wed 9 Sep 2020, 15:43 (last edited on Wed 9 Sep 2020, 15:44)

I think if we stop objecting to censorship by unelected groups we are on a slippery slope.Presumably you'd be unhappy if a right wing group blockaded the Guardian because they didn't agree with their editorials 

If we accept one form of blockade, because we agree with it, how can we object to others because we disagree

A separate thread on the Dover blockade removes the diversion problem

Wed 9 Sep 2020, 13:59

Yes Harriet.  I and some of my neighbours, have cause to worry about people with dementia every day.  I know exactly what you speak of.

I wonder if we are guilty of over-reaction to the seriousness of a peaceful demo that stops newspapers being printed for one day.  It doesn’t appear to have censored opinion, sadly it seems to have reinforced opinion.  It also seems to have been useful in deflecting attention away from a more serious and threatening social movement, the blockade of Dover and the intimidation of refugees.  

There are many of us who are well able to use technology, particularly those of us who use this website, who continue to use a paper copy for their news.  If I can change so can they.

Tue 8 Sep 2020, 21:32 (last edited on Tue 8 Sep 2020, 21:32)

Apologies Eleanor if i misunderstood People who know me realise that I'm not particularly sensitive and tend to speak my mind But did not mean to,cause offense

Tue 8 Sep 2020, 21:28 (last edited on Tue 8 Sep 2020, 22:02)

Gosh Tony, it wasn’t actually aimed at you. If anything I thought you’d been treated unfairly, although now I’m pretty certain you’ve proved my point. 

No sniping here. 

and as someone in their thirties who works in tech, I think Harriet really captures why I think the XR argument has a bit misplaced impact in a rural town with an average age higher than many, and limited modes of transport available to seek alternatives. 

Tue 8 Sep 2020, 21:17 (last edited on Tue 8 Sep 2020, 21:27)

Well said Rachael and much better than  Eleanor's sniping and Mathews equivocation

Tue 8 Sep 2020, 19:04

Thank you to the playful soul who left a giftwrapped copy of Tony Blair's biography on my doorstep today. No doubt sparked by this debate thread! I'll read with interest, however as anyone who knows my politics will know Im no supporter of Blair or neoliberalism under any party banner. It genuinely brought a smile to my face though after a hard day at work.   Some people have commented on the quality of debate in this thread. Personally I think some healthy jousting is good for the spirits. It's okay for people to disagree and to hear other views. It's also nice to be reminded I'm not the only socialist in the village - sorry, I know, town! (Nearly sparked more crossfire there ;-)

Tue 8 Sep 2020, 18:44

This is precisely what XR (and Charlbury by the sound of comments on here) doesn't understand about people. Not all elderly people are internet savvy (yes, amazingly this is the case in 2020), some of them use newspapers to tell them what day of the week it is (dementia is a crap illness), and for them newspapers of any kind actually provide a lifeline. Take their daily newspaper away and they can't cope. But who cares, they're old, they'll die sooner than most of XR will,, let's not think about them. 

Tue 8 Sep 2020, 17:23

Wasn’t this just a peaceful demo that demonstrated the value of online subscriptions to newspapers?  Instead of paying to plant all these new forests, maybe we could stop cutting them down. 

I was busy reading online about the other ‘peaceful’ demo that day.  The blockade of the port of Dover with the associated disruption of trade and business and the harassment and anger directed at people who had suffered enough.  Why is nobody talking about that one?

Tue 8 Sep 2020, 13:57

I wasn't going to post again but I think objecting to X R deciding what people can read and objecting to people's reading choice being labelled toilet paper is more than just 'sniping'

Tue 8 Sep 2020, 12:43 (last edited on Tue 8 Sep 2020, 12:52)

Hmm, yes, I agree the quality of the debate on this thread is not that great.

 I was meaning more increasing the awareness of the climate crisis nationally and internationally (as well as locally). The actions of XR are not meant to be popular but they do bring the climate crisis back on the agenda. I am undecided whether their tactics are the best way forward but in some respects they are effective...

Tue 8 Sep 2020, 12:10

I disagree that “it’s getting people debating”, this thread largely seems to be grown adults sniping at each other for having differing opinions. 

Tue 8 Sep 2020, 06:57

Well move it to debate thread

Mon 7 Sep 2020, 23:28 (last edited on Tue 8 Sep 2020, 10:16)

Part of what XR want to do is to get people debating and be more aware the climate crisis. Whether you agree with their tactics or not, they are succeeding....

Mon 7 Sep 2020, 21:49 (last edited on Mon 7 Sep 2020, 22:15)

Because the Daily Telegraph has long been known as the voice of the proletariat (?!) 

Mon 7 Sep 2020, 21:13 (last edited on Mon 7 Sep 2020, 21:14)

The point I was making is that working class people rejected Corbyn's extreme left policies and the liberals decision to ignore the referendum result They also do not want to be dictated to by X R on whether they can get to work or which papers are acceptable reading

Mon 7 Sep 2020, 20:17

Tony Morgan "I would have thought the last election would have shown that normal working class people don't like being looked down on or lectured to by the middle class liberal elite or the extreme 'private school educated' left"

No sure I follow. Labour had their worst defeat in years

Mon 7 Sep 2020, 17:52 (last edited on Mon 7 Sep 2020, 17:54)

Having watched the BBC's recent documentary on the rise of a 'powerful' media mogul anyone might become concerned about impartiality and the manipulation of the truth being sold through all forms of media. It is good to see that the Beeb are showing some balance and have commissioned David Attenborough's latest documentary here is a link to its announcement  https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/54009342 

Mon 7 Sep 2020, 17:27

'Shades of Orwell' (!) If only any of the reporters at the Daily Telegraph had an inch of the personal and journalistic integrity of the great George Orwell. The fact that (some) 'Normal working class people' voted for this incompetent shower of lying toerags is only further evidence of the need for greater social justice in this country, and indeed in the world. And incidentally climate change has the biggest detrimental impact on those with fewer economic resources.

Mon 7 Sep 2020, 16:51

Activism is not stopping people getting to work or choosing what they read in shades of Orwell

Nor is liberalism telling people that the papers they read are only fit for toilet paper

I would have thought the last election would have shown that normal working class people don't like being looked down on or lectured to by the middle class liberal elite or the extreme 'private school educated' left

Mon 7 Sep 2020, 15:57

Barbara,

Agree.  

Also add a pandemic and Brexit, and things aren't looking so good.

History has shown that the Establishment is none too keen on those who challenge it.  Suffragettes, Tolpuddle Martyrs, Chartists, etc.  Much easier just to use force against them than to engage in debate.  

So now we have a NHS, education for the workers' children, and (perish the thought) votes for women.  

None of these would have been gained without activism.

Mon 7 Sep 2020, 14:41 (last edited on Mon 7 Sep 2020, 14:55)

Are we ready for a paradigm shift in public opinion?  What with economic collapse, climate and ecological collapse the only collapse we might avoid is the civilisation collapse.   That will only happen if we diverge from decades of indulging in denial, delusion and delay.  Time to lower our expectations and get real - future looking exceedingly grim.  Should we be printing papers anyway with all the deforestation that is rife?   

https://www.earth.com/news/earth-two-degrees-warming/

Mon 7 Sep 2020, 10:40

Yes I think that they have shot themselves in the foot this time. Time they got the real reason for their protest back under control and back on track.

Mon 7 Sep 2020, 10:10

And no social distancing?  Very irresponsible and not getting anyone’s support.

Sun 6 Sep 2020, 20:55

Well my choice would be for people to get to work unimpeded by X R and have access to whatever papers they chose unimpeded by X R 

Sun 6 Sep 2020, 20:23

Tony, at present only half a dozen billionaires decide which papers you read, and choose our governments. XR don't want to choose your media for you: they'd like greater freedom for you to make your own choices.

Sun 6 Sep 2020, 19:42 (last edited on Sun 6 Sep 2020, 19:43)

So XR decide which papers we can read and if we can travel to work?

Sun 6 Sep 2020, 19:41

Jimmy Anderson hasn’t played T20 cricket for years.

Sun 6 Sep 2020, 19:22

If anyone is in doubt about the urgency and seriousness of climate change then read this clear and evidence based primer by copying and pasting this link  https://www.dropbox.com/s/c11ok7dg82guslh/Science%2C%20Demands%2C%20Politics%20-%20an%20XR%20Primer%20%28hyperlinked%29.pdf?can_id=13690ce37f1dcf1f275febf9be6310c3&dl=0&email_referrer=email_899952&email_subject=will-you-join-us-this-september&link_id=0&source=email-can-you-join-us-this-september

Extinction Rebellion are reluctantly taking non-violent direct action like this because decades of polite letters to MPs and petitions have not led to the action which world leading scientists and even the governments own committee on climate change are clearly saying are required.

Sun 6 Sep 2020, 17:39

What motivates the people who were blocking the printing presses is a belief that the media could be doing much more to instill a greater sense of urgency to combat the climate and ecological emergency that is now facing us. We may disapprove the method used but I hope we hear the message: see this short film that explains where Extinction Rebellion is coming from.

Sun 6 Sep 2020, 14:16

As I did not receive my DT yesterday with the Review containing Radio and TV for the week I did not know what time the Cricket is starting today. Also, why is Jimmy Anderson not playing in this series?

Sun 6 Sep 2020, 13:58

So having prevented people from getting to work XR are now taking on the national censorship role!

Sun 6 Sep 2020, 11:45 (last edited on Tue 8 Sep 2020, 10:08)

XR seem to have done a good job of repurposing these rags for a more suitable purpose - without them being read.

Meanwhile, newspapers remained available.....

Sat 5 Sep 2020, 19:52

We need to keep a sense of humour but  Mine deserted me when my paper did not arrive today! OK I can download, but it’s not the same!!!

Sat 5 Sep 2020, 18:38

Or the Times. 

The knock on effect will be nothing to wrap your chips in. 

Sat 5 Sep 2020, 14:52

Sorry for the lack of newspapers today due to protests we were unable to get all the papers in. 

Sat 5 Sep 2020, 14:02

WHAT no newspapers? I think not.

Sat 5 Sep 2020, 10:20

Is the world a better place for it?

Sat 5 Sep 2020, 09:35 (last edited on Sat 5 Sep 2020, 10:16)

Delays due to Ext Rebellion PROTESTS At the Printers.