RhodesMustFall Peaceful Protest Tomorrow (9th at 5pm) (Debate)

Sun 9 Aug 2020, 14:18

Did you see this?

Black Lives Matter group offers rural people 'insight into prejudice'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/08/black-lives-matter-rural-insight-prejudice-blm-stix

Mon 22 Jun 2020, 12:46 (last edited on Mon 22 Jun 2020, 12:48)

Encouraging to see that there are other people interested, please email charlburyandblm@gmail.com if you are and we can start to take things from there. 

Sun 14 Jun 2020, 12:28 (last edited on Sun 14 Jun 2020, 12:38)

There are a few of us who are interested in setting up a space where we can discuss some of these topics but we weren't sure on the best way to do this. Judging by the amount of engagement on this thread, we are encouraged that people do have things…

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Sun 14 Jun 2020, 12:25

The problem with statues of controversial historical people in public places is the lack of context. If the statues were in museums, for example, it would allow presentation of the historical context that these figures lived in. I also think we have become too reductive, partly because of the way the MSM presents everything and everyone. People do good and bad things. There are many examples of people other than Churchill who achieved great and good things, while also doing some unpleasant and inappropriate things, Jimmy Saville, Roald Dahl and Mahatma Gandhi for instance. When a statue is erected of anyone, it makes them appear so revered that their bad deeds are forgotten. Maybe we need an entire museum for these statues so that they can be presented with the background and detail required.  

Sun 14 Jun 2020, 09:49

Yesterday we witnessed white supremacists marching through London holding up Nazi salutes, going to revere a statue.  Which part of our history were they defending?  These are the people who stifle debate and undermine free speech and the right to peaceful demonstration.  They do it by spreading fear and they have been emboldened by the politics of nationalism.

With thanks to Simon Schama - "statues lording over civic space, shut off debate through their invitation to reverence".  Statues represent "more about the mindset of those who commissioned them".  Colston was a monster and people have always toppled statues of monsters.  I thought that the people who dumped his effigy into the harbour exhibited quite a good understanding of history.  That is what Colston did to others.

There have been many peaceful requests to remove these indulgences.  This has been completely ignored and rejected as a lack of understanding of history.  A countrywide review of our statutory may not achieve much of its own but it is a small start.

Sat 13 Jun 2020, 18:57 (last edited on Sat 13 Jun 2020, 19:10)

I couldn't agree more with Clive.  Much of what follows I'd written before his post appeared - and until it did, I wasn't going to bother!  And am posting it now not least to illustrate his main point.

I wasn’t going to post on this thread partly because it gives rise to some tricky issues over which there is so much room for misunderstanding (come to think of it, that may be why I give up posting on other threads!) – and partly because it’s an area that tends to attract more heat than light, not to mention some holier-than-thou preaching or worse, rather than rational discussion of what the problems are, what we need to do to address them and thereby improve people’s lives.  Which is probably also why so few people have put their heads over the parapet.

So for now, I’ll just say this:  The USA aside, some kind of public review and re-appraisal of our own imperial/colonial past and its legacy is long overdue (while not forgetting that we cannot change history nor should we ignore the facts, whatever view we take of them).  The need for something like that has perhaps been side-lined in recent times by Brexit – itself uncomfortable - and now by the coronavirus issues.  Or is that just an excuse?  Such a review might well lead to the removal or at least re-description of some of our monuments and statues – but should also look at practical and positive steps we could take to improve matters beyond the symbolic.  Seeing a few statues come down may give some momentary satisfaction – but by itself, would it achieve any real change??

Like Clive, I agree with a lot of what's been said but there are other challenging things which must be at least open to debate – but they are said with such religious certainty, I see little point in trying to here. 

Fri 12 Jun 2020, 21:14 (last edited on Fri 12 Jun 2020, 21:24)

… and so, on Wednesday, what might have developed into an interesting debate ground to a halt.

Although I agree with almost all of what Jeff Linton and Emily Algar have said, surely they must see that the way in which they express themselves simply stifles the debate itself. If you make everyone scared to say anything on this forum, because they will have that and their innate privileges thrown back in their face, then you simply stop the debate altogether.

We all have our own opinions, and a healthy and open discussion on any divisive issue should be encouraged, not stymied.

Wed 10 Jun 2020, 18:02

Privilege of any kind is intersectional. You are a man that affords you one type of privilege, you are also white which is another. Like Jeff said, being white affords you the privilege of never being discriminated against based on your skin colour. I am not however saying that just because you are white and male doesn’t mean life hasn’t been hard. It just means it hasn’t been hard because of the colour of your skin.
No, I don’t know anything about you Hannen except what you have written on a public forum, but similarly you do not know anything about those protestors who want the Rhodes statue and other statues removed. Perhaps you could try listening to them and try to understand their world view. There is a great line in To Kill A Mockingbird, “You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view... until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.” 

Wed 10 Jun 2020, 17:01 (last edited on Wed 10 Jun 2020, 17:13)

"Not sure what 'intense privilege' actually means. So this is something that all male whites enjoy is it?" 
It means that you won't have suffered discrimination on the basis of your gender or race. It's not something you have to consider when making comments on a public forum. 

Why not…

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Wed 10 Jun 2020, 12:00 (last edited on Wed 10 Jun 2020, 13:32)

I agree with much of what you say Emily and have edited my post.

I don't think the Forum, "Debate" section is a place for personal attacks. "Only someone with intense privilege - white and male - could make such a throwaway and hurtful remark."

Not sure what "intense privilege" actually means.  So this is something that all male whites enjoy is it?  

You know nothing about me or my background.  Don't assume.

Wed 10 Jun 2020, 10:47

Statues are innately political and are generally erected by the powerful to legitimise their message and views. As we all know, the victors are the ones that write history not the victims. Statues are also generally erected to be admired and celebrated.

So I take issue with your view Hannen that statues are just "a lump of metal or stone".  If you are a black American living in a southern town and that southern town has a confederate statue in the middle of it, and because you are black you already subject to discrimination by the police, local government, employers and businesses, that statue is not going to be just "a lump of metal or stone" to you. It's going to represent that you are not equal in that town; that local government does not view you as worthy of equal rights; and that an individual that fought to keep you and your ancestors slaves is more worthy than you. Only someone with intense privilege - white and male - could make such a throwaway and hurtful remark. 

Wed 10 Jun 2020, 00:02 (last edited on Wed 10 Jun 2020, 11:58)

Thanks Jeff.

I have no truck with you or yours, but I think there are ways of raising awareness, and ultimately being kind to all.

Tue 9 Jun 2020, 22:19 (last edited on Sat 13 Jun 2020, 22:41)

"I don't condone racism, just don't discuss it where I have to see it!!" 

"I don't condone racism, I have mixed white heritage!!"

"I don't condone racism... uh... IDRIS ELBA!!"

Given that Rhodes' fortune came from using slaves to loot diamonds in South Africa, you might want to re-think who owes who 😆 

Tue 9 Jun 2020, 19:40

Actually might prefer a statue of Idris Elba.  Michael was not English after all.

Tue 9 Jun 2020, 19:05

People live in their own times.  I don't condone racism, in fact come from two diasporas.  

I note the big protest banner outside Oriel spells Colonial with a double “l”. Says it all imo.

Well, are the Rhodes Scholars going to repay their grants? Especially bearing in mind that there is no skin colour criterion. No, I thought not.

And if he were to be taken down, with whom should he be replaced? Michael Jackson maybe?

Mon 8 Jun 2020, 16:38

Those responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people on the basis of their skin seem like good people to disagree with but maybe that's just me!

Keep fighting the good fight folks! Gross.

Mon 8 Jun 2020, 16:32 (last edited on Mon 8 Jun 2020, 16:48)

Yikes

Mon 8 Jun 2020, 15:37

Jeff – more than happy to discuss this with you in person subject to the usual social distancing precautions.

Mon 8 Jun 2020, 14:27

Peaceful and socially distanced just like Bristol over the weekend?

Best left alone in my opinion!

Mon 8 Jun 2020, 14:18

Jeff,

I do not take umbrage but is this Charlbury related?  

Also, where would this kind of thing end?  Take down statues/busts of anyone with whom "we" disagree?  Or with hindsight, disagreed?

I think there is a Charlbury fb page where this sort of thing might be more appropriate.

I repeat, I don't mind (and besides, it's not my "place").  Just saying...

Mon 8 Jun 2020, 13:45

Hi Richard, 

Not sure how the announcement of an event is a debate?

Mon 8 Jun 2020, 10:17 (last edited on Mon 8 Jun 2020, 10:21)

There is a peaceful and socially distant protest planned (tomorrow, June 9th at 5pm) at the statue of Cecil Rhodes - a white supremacist and architect of apartheid - at Oriel College, Oxford. This will take place on Oxford High Street by the statue. 

There is also a draft letter which people are emailing to Oriel College and the University of Oxford here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C40oS8V0IwlLkIx9nYUWzd1KMHi8JRN3sKGiwsoY7XA/edit

If you want to read more about Rhodes, there is some material here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32131829