20mph speed limit

Mon 15 Jun 2020, 19:14

I didn't mind.  I was just startled!  Mind you I doubt he was going much over 25 mph.

I remember from cycling days that if one could pick up speed going downhill one took full advantage.  Did that once going down the hill from Dover Castle (I was 15).  Came a cropper.  Lost control and vaguely remember ending up in A & E.  Concussion and lots of blood.  Several stitches to the forehead (still got the scar).

Made me what I am.  ;-)

Mon 15 Jun 2020, 16:50

On a purely legal point, road speed limits do not generally apply to cyclists as they are not motor vehicles according to the law. They have a different classification.

There are a some places in the UK where by-laws have been passed for speed limits which apply to all. One such is the royal parks in London and cyclists are, occasionally, prosecuted in Richmond Park for exceeding the posted 20 mph speed limit.

Here is one example of a cyclist being fined £400 for exactly that.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-cyclist-fined-for-speeding-in-richmond-park-after-he-is-clocked-at-38mph-a3102191.html

Note, that every now and then a cyclist is prosecuted for "riding furiously", but that's a rather ill-defined charge.

There's also the slight issue that cyclists are not compelled to have speedometers.

Mon 15 Jun 2020, 14:36

My daughter knew a young man who was stopped for speeding in a wheelchair,  it must have been motorised! 

Mon 15 Jun 2020, 14:23

Hannen, speed limits apply to motor vehicles only.

Wed 10 Jun 2020, 16:50

Hannen, why don't you just shake your fist at the offender and hope that it is no one you know and might meet later.!

Wed 10 Jun 2020, 10:05

All ready been passed by a car in 20mph whilst driving my own at 20mph

Tue 9 Jun 2020, 20:51

Yes it does (though very difficult to prosecute).

Tue 9 Jun 2020, 19:36

So what do we do in this situation?

Driving down Park Street this evening , having had the temerity to shop at Chippy Sainsbury's, going at about 18 to 20 mph (throttle will cut out at 20 mph) when an "ordinary" cyclist (i.e. not one in lycra) overtook me.

I didn't care, but it set me thinking.  That was on the down hill stretch, once I'd got to the 30 mph bit and was going uphill it was easy to overtake him.

So does the 20 mph not apply to cyclists?

Mon 8 Jun 2020, 16:08 (last edited on Mon 8 Jun 2020, 16:11)

No need, Highways have had some ' new speed limit' signs made today and they should be up by tomorrow. And thanks for the heads up about the painted sign on Enstone Rd, Mark. We are getting that removed.

Mon 8 Jun 2020, 15:42

How about using pavement chalk to draw “NEW”?

Cotswold Frames has some sets of Pavement Chalk. 

Just an idea.  

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 17:57

On entering Charlbury from Enstone, the retention of the 30 sign applied to the road surface , becomes a 20 zone immediately. All a bit confusing . But agree that safety is imperative . The poorly maintained roads and the current road markings - especially at T junctions are virtually non existent due to the lack of maintenance. The cost to reline is an obvious safety issue and the least expensive part of road maintenance, but essential for road users that are unaware of the road layout ( unlike locals ) , this makes the junctions difficult to identify at night and in wet conditions.

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 16:17

They have a role, but only remind drivers, can't capture speeders details so can be ignored with impunity, as realised on The Slade & Woodstock Rd.  CSW does at least enable follow up by TVP.  Commuters, delivery & HGV drivers appear immune to speed activated signs, as they know theres no comeback.  I'm up for anything that slows drivers though.

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 15:11

Vehicle activated speed signs , like the one on the Slade, worthy of consideration , self Policing and  ‘ full time ‘ not requiring social distancing 

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 14:14

I have, with the Town Clerks assistance, received some new Community Speedwatch placards to add to the new posts.  These will hopefully "catch the eye" of drivers & reinforce the message.  Philips "new speed limit" signs would also be welcome.  The Community Speedwatch team are currently prevented from  holding sessions due to restrictions on numbers gathering.  I'm seeking guidance from TVP in when we can start up again.  Our equipment can be configured to advise "new speed limit" & we aim to be out as soon as allowed.  On Enstone Rd, I've noticed some drivers responding to the new limit, but not all.  If anybody wants to be part of a positive project to challenge speeding, please contact me.  Community Speedwatch can always welcome new volunteers.

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 12:39

I have messaged, you, Michael

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 12:35

Is there a person I can contact about this subject as I have a few questions,  but don't won't to post on here,  nothing bad but just wanted to get a few things cleared up.

Thanks for any help.

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 12:24 (last edited on Sun 7 Jun 2020, 12:39)

Wilkins Court is not a commercial development, it was built by Cottsway as social housing. I don't recall the details but that is probably why the committee decided not to require any money from the developer. The plans, as with all plans, were seen by the Town Council. I think it is high time this discussion was relegated to the Debate section as we are really getting off the topic now

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 12:19 (last edited on Sun 7 Jun 2020, 12:21)

... although.... within the ANB there are rules about certain things...

Conservation Areas are usually created in those parts of towns or villages that are rich in history and character. The law says that they are: “areas of special architectural or historic interest, the character or appearance of which it is desirable to preserve or enhance”.

Yeah, right!

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 12:12

Oh Liz. Earlier on I penned a rather long and scathing reply to Alice about this. I then decided that my grumpy old lady persona needed a day off! 😂

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 10:42

Ho ho ho to the notion that there are big developer contributions. Developers play the rules to minimise what they have to pay and WODC does nothing to encourage them.  Given Peter B's remark about Wilkins Court, did anyone come and ask Charlbury Town Council?

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 10:20 (last edited on Sun 7 Jun 2020, 10:37)

Philip, thank you for your positive suggestion.  I will look into whether we can get some signs saying 'New speed limit in force'. Alice, there are very unlikely to be developments in Charlbury that could pay for such a scheme which would be massively more expensive than the signs around the town centre.  We are in the AONB and therefore development is limited following the adoption of the local plan last year.

Sun 7 Jun 2020, 09:52

If Alice is thinking of the Wilkins Court development at Woodstock Road, our understanding from the planning committee meeting Diana and I attended (5 Dec. 2016) as members of the public, was that no contribution would be made.  When the question of a contribution was considered, the planning officer said she did not know the area, so could not suggest anything, and no-one on the committee could think of a suitable project, so they agreed not to ask for anything.

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 22:05

Have to agree with you, Chris. I think we have many commuters dashing to the station down our ‘Lane’, because there are convoys of them every week day at certain times. It would be smart to walk down but.....

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 21:52

So maybe that's the solution - the next lot of developers contributions.  Maybe there were some from Woodstock Road or Sturt Road?  There has been plenty of development along that stretch of road. Problem solved?

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 21:30

Surprising that Church Street to Five Ways is not 20 mph throughout, likewise Dyers Hill to bottom of Nine Acre, but Primary School to Five Ways is wide with pavements both sides and is hard to see why that warrants further reduction. 

When the B4260 Southbound into Kidlington was reduced from 40 to 30 mph there were some rectangular white on red signs attached to the poles stating "New Speed Limit In Force". This attracted one's attention and nobody could be excused for not knowing when enforcement activity followed in due course.

Early days for enforcement. Give everyone a chance to assimilate new limits.

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 16:23 (last edited on Sat 6 Jun 2020, 16:58)

Thank you, Chris. And to be clear, council tax money has not been used to fund the 20mph zone. The money came from the developers who built the new houses on Pooles Lane as part of the agreement made when they were granted planning permission. The Town Council also contributed towards to consultation, but most of the money came from the development. And yes, we need enforcement. And in answer to Alice's question about who to write to, the Minister for Transport - though I have to confess I have no idea who that is... just looked him up, it's Grant Shapps.  Good luck with that.

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 16:23 (last edited on Sat 6 Jun 2020, 19:21)

Ok, I’m going to put my head on the block,  and say that the Town Council and our County Councillor Liz Leffman should be thanked and congratulated for introducing a 20mph speed limit in the narrow streets of central Charlbury and particularly where the pavements are also narrow and close to the road.  I am sure the scheme can be improved (e.g 20mph signs on the tarmac as you approach the speed limit area) and expanded or reduced with time as residents wish. Many villages and towns such as Stow on the Wold have had such schemes in place for months and years, so it is good to see some similar investment in Charlbury. I may be wrong but I think some of the worst speeding offenders have been commuters from outside town hacking it through to the railway station for that just in time train journey or wanting to get home from work to surrounding villages by saving a few seconds hurtling through our town streets.

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 14:41

Having almost been mown into by someone hurtling up Banbury Hill earlier, I’m reminded of the need for enforcement.  

Otherwise, people will act as if the law doesn’t apply to them.  Or perhaps they’re just taking the car out for an eye test?

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 14:16

I agree that there are drivers who speed everywhere Chris.  I would imagine they stand out much more clearly in Park Street where the traffic volumes are much lower.  I have joined Speedwatch twice in Park Street and we didn't see them.  So I suppose they only speed when Speedwatch is not there.

I have not said it is a waste of money Liz.  You have said yourself that the evidence suggests that introducing speed restrictions tends to move traffic onto roads without speed restrictions.  Any public money spent on reducing the bad effects of traffic is well spent.  We will never know whether it has prevented a future accident.  I have no idea how much it cost but it is Council Tax money that now can't be spent on Sturt Road and The Slade.  At least it will help on the Enstone Road corner and the road by Nine Acres.

It is the priority of the use of Council Tax money that depresses me.  If it would be an unethical demand on Council Tax income to spend money on these more dangerous roads then the money spent on converting the Town to 20mph would have better been spent on Social Care.  The Social Care budget is also responsible for paying for an ever increasing number of young adults who are seriously injured as a result of road traffic incidents.  We would be helping the Social Care budget by reducing the opportunity for bad driving.  

It is suggested that charitable funding might be used for road calming measures.  I find that a bit rich considering that Council Tax funding has just been used to reduce the traffic speed from 24 to 20mph.  Maybe something for the Town Council's Environment Working Group to request charitable donations?  Or maybe a Town levy on the Council Tax?  It's all public benefit.  Meanwhile who am I supposed to be writing to?

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 13:36

Agree with Liz L and Alice.

Personally, I've never understood how anyone can drive much over 25 mph in the smaller streets of Charlbury, or why they would want to.  Many are like chicanes, if passable at all.  Twice in the last 6 months have had to reverse because an ambulance can't get along Sheep Street.

Sturt Road and The Slade are obvious for speeding and I suspect, used by drivers from other areas.  

Should be interested to know how the Enstone Road is faring.  (I don't go out much). Went out that way last week and was tailgated by someone in a little red van.  Did my usual, and just pulled over to let them pass.  Even at 55 mph (my speed) they were soon out of sight!

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 12:43 (last edited on Sat 6 Jun 2020, 17:25)

Alice, I do not believe that this is a waste of money. Yes, traffic speeds through the town are generally low,  and hopefully will now be lower. 24 mph was recorded in Market St, Park St as Chris says has speeding issues but hopefully including the pre-school in the zone will help to protect the youngest. And yes, in an ideal world The Slade would also be 20mph, and at some point in the future I hope will be.  If you want to get the speed limit on The Slade lowered then we have to find the money to do this and we are talking serious sums - many tens of thousands.  I would be very interested in hearing from anyone who has an idea as to how we might go about raising that money because if we can raise it there is no reason why a scheme could not be approved. Perhaps Sustainable Charlbury? It is very unlikely that we will see this from the County whose funds have been seriously depleted by the pandemic. Reducing council tax would put even more pressure on the already over-stretched social care budget, which I really do not think is a very good idea especially in the current circumstances!

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 11:46

Well Alice, I have certainly witnessed traffic coming past the Old Grammar school and up Park Street at speeds well in excess of 30mph, and sometimes very close to young children being walked to pre-school on the narrow pavement. 

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 11:38 (last edited on Sat 6 Jun 2020, 17:01)

Many cars are still speeding down Market Street.  I will agree with previous comment, the sign....whilst very welcome is placed too high to be in direct line with driver's vision.  Whilst turning the corner into Market Street from Brown's Lane it would be more visible if placed on the left hand side of the road and within drivers vision. (but still grateful for all the work done)

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 11:10 (last edited on Sat 6 Jun 2020, 11:11)

How depressing.  All this scarce cash has been spent on solving a problem that doesn't exist.  The average speed in the town was 24mph.  I'm not aware of any crashes or road deaths.  Just a few badly behaved drivers.

On the other hand Speedwatch has demonstrated consistent rule breaking on The Slade and Sturt Road.  Crashes, injuries and a death have been recorded.  There is evidence that speed restrictions have the impact of increasing traffic on the roads where there are no speed restrictions.

Might I suggest to all of those writing their letters in support of traffic calming measures on The Slade and Sturt Road also ask for Council Tax reductions for loss of amenity.

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 10:44

Hannen so did I and suggested it would be better moving the 20mph speed limit to the other side of the school.  I can’t see why calming measures have to be in place when it’s meant to be when the school operates in the morning and afternoon.  

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 09:10

I appreciate there are all sorts of regulations regarding speed limits. Chipping Norton has 20 mph on the A44 "dip"  between the High Street and Sainsbury's. There appears to be one traffic calming measure and that is the ped xcing traffic light. Can that not be installed on the Slade for a reasonable sum of money? Or should we discuss this in the traffic committee?

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 09:05

Signs are clear to me, and to my car's camera!  

There was a public consultation and I participated.  That was the opportunity for everyone to have their say.

Excellent job by the Town Council imo.

As ever, I suspect the difficulty will be enforcement.

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 08:54 (last edited on Sat 6 Jun 2020, 17:19)

There is a 20mph zone in force around the school during the school week at times when children are travelling to and from school, and has been for a long time, so they are able to safely cross the road close to the school.

Sat 6 Jun 2020, 08:15

To get the Slade changed, as has been said, you need to change the national regulations.  Get writing folks......

Fri 5 Jun 2020, 22:05

I agree about the Slade. Schoolchildren now cross just outside the 20 mph limit.. another fifty yards would have made so much sense in lots of ways: the steep hill would have provided the acceleration / deceleration from one speed to the other, whereas now drivers accelerate into the children's crossing area.

Fri 5 Jun 2020, 16:01 (last edited on Fri 5 Jun 2020, 16:01)

I appreciate that the whole of the Slade couldn’t be included however I do think it’s a bit crazy to have the 30mph and the 20mph signs so near to one another.  It would have been far safer to start the other side of the school and would not have had any need to have calming measures in place. 

Fri 5 Jun 2020, 15:27

Hi Liz L, I appreciate fully the efforts, time and goodwill of everyone involved with bringing this into play, and I was just sorry that the final part, making it very visual and to complement all the efforts, was not (yet?)  possible. 

Fri 5 Jun 2020, 13:54 (last edited on Fri 5 Jun 2020, 14:00)

To be able to include the whole of The Slade in the 20mph zone on a permanent basis (not just outside the school where it applies at certain times of the day), we would need to have traffic calming measures in place. That is because the average speed  while generally within the 30mph limit, is not low enough to be able to be sure that people could stick to a 20 mph limit, especially on the dip. The average speed in the town centre when it was monitored for several weeks before the decision to go ahead was 24mph, low enough to justify dropping the legal limit to 20. This all follows national regulations. The 20 mph zone has been funded with money from the development in Pooles Lane, and we did not have enough to include all of The Slade and Nine Acres Lane, and the County was not able to fund it.  It remains a long term ambition to make the whole of Charlbury a 20 mph zone.

Fri 5 Jun 2020, 13:18

It’s a shame they didn’t begin the 20mph signs the other side of the school instead of just past Wychwood Close.  I am biased but would have been much safer.  In fact I don’t know why the whole of Charlbury can’t be 20mph 

Fri 5 Jun 2020, 12:51 (last edited on Fri 5 Jun 2020, 12:57)

Well, I am personally delighted that we have been able to get a 20mph zone into the town.  It may not be perfect in every respect, and we may need to monitor it and see what improvements can be made, but at least we have got there after a long period of negotiation. In the end, the responsibility for noticing road signs lies with drivers and I suspect that for some people, signs a mile high would not help.  But most people are law-abiding and sensible in my experience. Speed-watch has shown that most drivers in Charlbury do not exceed the speed limits around the town.

Fri 5 Jun 2020, 12:13 (last edited on Fri 5 Jun 2020, 12:13)

Agree with you, Jon.

Who’s looking around for little signs when they’re busy negotiating turns. The ones at the top of Pooles Lane on to the Slade are useless in my opinion, and pose more of a hazard than a convenience in my ‘umble opinion! We already have road markings at the other end of Pooles Lane, so let’s have some really good big ones at the top of the hill.

Fri 5 Jun 2020, 10:31

20 should be painted in the road at each entry point. Plus hatching.

Fri 5 Jun 2020, 09:55

Cars going very fast along Market Street yesterday,  sign is very high above notice about weak bridge.

Fri 5 Jun 2020, 09:31

How about a temporary sign before entering the zones - NEW SPEED LIMIT - on entering Charlbury from Enstone,  I found myself travelling at the speed I have always entered Charlbury before noticing the new limit. 

Fri 5 Jun 2020, 08:59

Not much evidence of slowed traffic in Park Street I'm afraid. The signs are small and not very noticeable. How could we help car drivers understand that there is a new rule?