Loss of freedoms (Debate)

Sun 24 May 2020, 09:06

Interesting podcast on the same theme from David Runciman. 

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/europe-blows-up/id974670140?i=1000475255945

The scale of this problem needs good leadership.  I can't decide whether Johnson's presence is better than his continued absence.  UK debt has now risen to 97% of GDP - back at the same levels it was in early 1960's and we repaid that debt to the Americans about 2006 I think.  

We should start new debate on a new thread "There is no such thing as free trade for advanced economies, only freely trading within large trading blocks".  I'll leave that up to someone else.

Sat 23 May 2020, 20:43

It was only the realisation that the euro was in danger of collapse that persuaded Merkel to agree The destruction of the Greek economy was a 'minor' inconvenience to the rich members of the club It only takes one country to veto the proposal for grants so we'll see if European solidarity outways national self interest this time round

Sat 23 May 2020, 18:18

Do you mean the article on P4?   I’m reading that the ECB has launched a Pandemic Emergency Fund of E750bn.  But as a result of Germany’s constitutional court outcome 2 weeks ago which doubted the legality of ECB support by “underscoring the need for budgetary support as well as monetary support for vulnerable E.U. members”, Mrs Merkel has agreed to Mr Macron’s proposal to make a new emergency fund of E500bn housed within the EU’s budget, not managed by the central bank.  This will allow grants to be given to support real need rather than just loans according to the size of the countries collateral.  It don’t read that it replaces the ECB loan fund which would still be useful much like our own loan fund.  

France and Germany do have to convince “the frugal four - Austria, Denmark, the Netherlands and Sweden”.  Macron has been warning of the political need to provide grants according to need and it appears the Dutch have already agreed.  The article is optimistic “the need to avert an economic depression, could be a powerful persuader”.

I completely agree that this is really exciting.  Even if they agree on a lower sum it will be a huge step forward in increasing the cohesiveness of the Union.  As Mrs Merkel was quoted as saying in times of struggle you had to “stick up for an idea, the idea of Europe, the national state alone has no future”.  Fingers crossed for their success.  Thank goodness for the ft, I haven’t found Mr. Cummings mentioned yet.

Sat 23 May 2020, 16:53

The key point with the recovery fund was that for the first time it provided grants not loans, which moves the EU closer to the fiscal & monetary union that many believe is necessary to save the euro.

However the FT has an article today saying that Holland, Austria, Denmark & Sweden won't agree to grants & require further support to be by more 'unrepayable' loans

Interesting times!

Fri 22 May 2020, 17:43

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/

Fri 22 May 2020, 17:04 (last edited on Fri 22 May 2020, 17:17)

Not what the Greeks say! or many Italians

If we’d try to stay in the single market we would

Have had to obey all the other EU rules

Which would have been the worst of all options

As we’d be obeying rules we had no part of forming

Fri 22 May 2020, 16:57

A final correction - Iceland, Norway, Switzerland & Liechtenstein are in the single market but not members of the EU.   The question was simply "Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU".  Clearly, most of the residents of Charlbury are not angry that we have left the single market and ended our freedom of movement as well.  I'm too old to be angry for myself, I'm so sad for future generations, I've just enjoyed 45 years of membership of the best club in the world - thank you Europe.

Fri 22 May 2020, 15:52 (last edited on Fri 22 May 2020, 15:52)

But my understanding is that the UK's immigration policy will allow skilled workers from anywhere in the world to come here and work, with further points for lower skilled workers if required. If the exodus of UK citizens is going to Italy, Spain etc then they aren't going to a particularly good place at the moment

Also staying in the single market is not leaving the EU

Fri 22 May 2020, 15:30 (last edited on Fri 22 May 2020, 15:38)

Its a pity the the government did not interpret the narrow but decisive referendum result as a mandate to leave the EU but remain in the single market. But that is now history.

I plan to give this thread a rest. But I thought I'd finish with a personal story about freedoms and choices and an observation. 

I have a weekly French class. Two years ago it comprised 60% overseas students. It included: a spanish graduate working in nuclear fusion research, a chinese chef finishing her patisserie training at Maison de Quatres Saisons, a turkish student finishing her doctorate in political studies and a spanish international lawyer working in the music industry.  

All of them have gone. For the first time there are no international students in our smaller class. I also know UK citizens who are leaving the UK before the end of FM and others organising second passports so they can do so later.  

An individual is usually replaceable, but a country losing a cohort of skilled residents probably isn't heading towards a very good place.

Fri 22 May 2020, 12:53 (last edited on Fri 22 May 2020, 13:04)

Surely the vote and Brexit are one and the same thing & neither seem to be 'behind' if you want charlbury residents to continue being angry at the implementation of a democratic referendum

The grant proposal is a major change in EU, and German, policy, and not just an addition, driven mainly by concerns over the Italian bank & economic situation as below

When German chancellor Angela Merkel announced one of the biggest U-turns of her career this week, the declaration was both emphatic and unexpected.

“The big concern is that the economic crisis will destroy the European single market and even threaten the future of the EU,” said one senior adviser to Ms Merkel’s CDU, adding that the chancellor needed a “grand gesture” to prove she had not abandoned southern European nations hit hard by the virus.

Fri 22 May 2020, 11:52

Brexit is behind us Tony.  No need to keep referring to it.  That's the first time I've mentioned the word in this debate.  I was talking about the people of the country voting to restrict their freedoms and opportunities.  

Furloughing in other countries involves ramping up existing short-term leave programmes.  The Euro 500 billion grant proposal from Macron & Merkel is in addition to the new credit facility from the European Stability Mechanism.   Spain, Portugal & Greece have all said they don't need this funding because they can access cheaper market funding. 

Fri 22 May 2020, 10:57

There is obviously a lot of emotion attached to Brexit!

However the fact remains that a democratic referendum voted to leave and remainers have spent the last 4 years trying to stop the process. This culminated in the Lib Dems revoke policy at the last election (i.e. just ignore the people because we know best), and everyone saw what the electorate thought of that, together with labour's fence sitting policy

An interesting point is that 401 of the 632 constituencies voted leave, which should have mandated those MPs to accept their constituents choice and work for the best leave agreement

In economic terms we are better placed with our own currency & central bank to weather the coronavirus

Interestingly Germany has 'finally' agreed to a 500bn recovery fund due to growing concern about anti EU sentiment in Italy & Spain who do not have that financial freedom

Will be interesting to see if this gets agreement from all the other northern EU countries

I would add that I have no time for Johnson as a politician or a man, but the remainers refusal to accept the democratic vote contributed to him being Prime Minister

I also think that Corbyn must share the blame as I believe that if Starmer had been labour leader at the election they might well have won or at least created a hung parliament

Fri 22 May 2020, 09:04 (last edited on Fri 22 May 2020, 09:16)

Leading edge tech companies have always done very well in this country with or without state funding.  What they really need is free movement of labour.  I suppose they will get by with a points system of inviting skilled workers. 

To get back to the point of my original post - if you wish to live and work in any one of 32 countries around Europe, not too far from your aged parents, good communications, democracies respecting the rule of law and the the rights of individuals - then you had better go now.  Because July will be too late.  Unless like a fortunate minority you have a European passport.

It is our choice to do these things that has been removed by a gloating Home Secretary.  I have not said we were 'banned' or that we can't go on holiday. I wasn't talking about the EU or the Eurozone problems.  I was talking about the loss of freedom of movement.  In future we will only be able to go and stay if we have either lots of money or are outstandingly brilliant at something.  That's most of us excluded.    

I'm thinking of the lorry drivers we met on the Santander ferry who used to do the Spain/UK fruit run.  They had moved their families to Spain because the schools were better resourced, the house prices were cheaper and the societies safe.  But they are the last lorry drivers that will be able to do that because Spain has plenty home grown drivers.  

Incidentally, for the correction of another myth - furloughing workers is not a UK only bailout - my paper tells me that 40 million workers in Europe's five biggest economies have been furloughed.  

Thu 21 May 2020, 18:31 (last edited on Thu 21 May 2020, 18:31)

Home grown inventions are great, and I am very much in favour of high tech entrepreneurs being given the support they need to develop their businesses. But look at what happened to Dyson. Absolutely everything is now made in the Far East. Supporting startups does not guarantee long term jobs. It is more than likely that some home grown technology will end up being manufactured somewhere other than in the UK. In the 1980s the car industry was given massive incentives to relocate to the UK and that meant thousands of jobs.That happened because of the proximity of European markets and the risk is that over time, if we don't get the deal we need, those jobs could go and not be replaced.

Thu 21 May 2020, 15:12

From what I'm reading it looks like leading edge tech companies will be getting 'commercially' based support so we can take our own inventions forward

Thu 21 May 2020, 14:40 (last edited on Thu 21 May 2020, 14:43)

There is a lot of truth in the observations about the €. The EU's mistake was in admitting countries with very different levels of productivity into a single currency zone. It would have been far better to have fewer EU countries adopting the € or to have agreed to the levels of fiscal transfers necessary. 

Furlowing is a national competence. I don't think EU membership or otherwise affects that, and different EU countries have followed various policies.

QE is available to us because we were not in the € (and flexibility over fiscal deficits too). The eurozone has been very cautious in its monetary approach, and perhaps too much so. But I'm also concerned about the levels of QE in the UK.  

I'm very pessimistic about the coming trade negotiations, there are effectively three global trading blocks. We face some difficult choices.

I am sceptical about the freedom to support crucial industries. Successive UK governments have had a poor track record in this. In the 70s it led to the UK (I'm showing my age) spending a lot of money propping up a range of badly managed lame duck businesses because of industry lobbying.

Thu 21 May 2020, 13:47

Hannen that's a very interesting point I veered towards the benefit of the single market, but as you say some astute business people think that the UK can benefit more from its own trade deals. I have to say I have concerns about this. But at least we were able to introduce furloughing and more QE without EU involvement. Also we will be able to introduce support for crucial industries, which is also against EU policy, unless you're France!

Thu 21 May 2020, 12:54

"I actually voted remain because I believe in free trade."

I find it all very confusing.  A relative who works with wealthy companies and banks in the City told me that " I voted leave because I believe in free trade."

I honestly don't know what to make of it!

Thu 21 May 2020, 11:47 (last edited on Thu 21 May 2020, 12:32)

No that's a more serious discussion on the other thread!

Thu 21 May 2020, 11:04

Thought this was about noisy motorbikes?!

Thu 21 May 2020, 10:23

I actually voted remain because I believe in free trade. However when the majority voted leave I though that honouring democracy was the most important point, and should have been actioned straight away. If remain had won and the leavers had tried to block the vote there would have been hell to play from the liberal establishment. Even the most rose tinted view of the EU must accept it has some responsibility for Greece's 'destruction' and Italy & Spain's problems. Can any of the europhiles explain how disparate economies can be locked into a single currency, which removes the safety net of currency depreciation, without full fiscal & monetary union, which Germany & the other rich countries continue to reject

Thu 21 May 2020, 09:42

Experts agree that all outcomes of Brexit will hurt the economy. However it will not be possible to see the hit because the Covid-19 pandemic will cause a much higher hit to the economy. N b: No need to post about the benefits or drawback of lockdown, we have enough debates about that elsewhere.

Wed 20 May 2020, 22:09 (last edited on Wed 20 May 2020, 22:47)

Hi Charlie. To be fair I think it's unlikely that people heading away for a fortnight Spanish holiday will need a visa (though they will probably need an ETIAS). That's not in any ones' interests. The UK has provisionally said it will allow short term tourist visits from the EU/EEA visa free. If the UK follows though on that undertaking it is very likely that the EU will reciprocate.

But that arrangement would probably be conditional. So a drunken stag party or a group of disorderly football supporters could encounter difficulties at the EU border, and vice versa.   

Wed 20 May 2020, 21:50

Belgium again ... my Grandfather lies with so many other dead in the Fields of Flanders. Now, due to the stupidity of too many of our electorate, I too shall need a visa when I go to visit him, yes?

Majorca, Spain and Greece are popular holiday destinations for many. Presumably they will need visas too?

I use these examples purely to illustrate that there is a wide variety of reasons why we would want to visit Europe.

Yes, we have lost a MASSIVE area of our freedom. I hope this loss can be reversed in my lifetime, but I greatly fear that if a pro-EU government was elected after this current lot, the EU's attitude might be "Sorry folks, but you're too much trouble".

And I wouldn't blame them :'(

Wed 20 May 2020, 21:19 (last edited on Wed 20 May 2020, 21:39)

I regularly travel to Belgium to attend meetings and talk at conferences. If the UK does not reach agreement with the EU these meetings would require a short-term business visa.

The Belgian visa costs €60 and must be arranged a minimum of 15 days in advance. Requirements include (but are not limited to) a letter from your employer explaining the purpose of your trip, or an invitation letter from the organisation in Belgium requesting attendance. 

https://www.expatica.com/be/moving/visas/belgium-visas-and-immigration-100069/#Types-visa

Wed 20 May 2020, 16:08

Non EU citizens wanting to work in different EU countries need a work visa for that country. The rules are different for different countries. Some countries require the work to be offered to EU nationals first. Some insist on a job offer first. There is a quota on the number of workers permitted to work from outside the EU but like the UK, they are really short of labour – both skilled and unskilled. Once you are legally settled and working in one country you might apply for a Single Permit which will allow you to work in other EU countries.  

Wed 20 May 2020, 15:02 (last edited on Wed 20 May 2020, 15:05)

International travel regulations have substantially changed since the 1970s.

The rules about travel into the EU from the UK are currently subject to negotiation.  UK citizens will probably still be able to enter the EU to go on holiday. But should expect similar sorts of bureaucracy to visitors entering the US. Journeys may be visa free - but that is certainly not guaranteed at this point. 

It is also very likely UK visitors will also need to get an ETIAS authorisation - which will mean providing additional information and include a "detailed security check" against EU databases. Visitors will also need to pay a fee, and visits would be limited to no more than 90 days. 

Details at: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/etias/

The ETIAS website emphasises that securing an ETIAS pass does NOT guarantee entry to an EU country - which will be at the discretion of border authorities. ETIAS forms will require pre-filled information about where you are travelling and why.

Rights to work, settle, retire or study - or for visits of more than 90 days will be affected. Some of those decisions lie with individual states. For example mutual recognition of professional qualifications are likely to lapse, and people wishing to settle may have to meet wealth and income tests. 

Older and more affluent people may be able to meet these, but many younger people trying to start a career may find it much more difficult.

A final thought, this creates two classes of UK citizens. The several million with another EU country passport (such as me) who will find their rights unaffected, and everyone else.  

Wed 20 May 2020, 14:02 (last edited on Wed 20 May 2020, 14:03)

Its news to me that we've been banned from 'engaging with different cultures to learn and expand our restricted horizons' Also surprised that we can't travel round Europe or work there. Must have missed that news

I hitch hiked to Greece in 1970 before we joined the EU with no problem!

Wed 20 May 2020, 09:30

I read this link with much sadness for the young people of our country who will not experience Europe as we did — travelling and working around easily, with just a passport — and will maybe never have all those wonderful, spontaneous friendships along the way. My generation was the very fortunate one. I wish all the youngsters could still say this.

Tue 19 May 2020, 15:54

Well that is your view.  Meanwhile, the freedoms and opportunities for our people have been hugely reduced.

Tue 19 May 2020, 15:13

I think many people who voted leave for a variety of reasons will strongly object, quite rightly, to being called racist

Maybe those flying the EU flags should spare a thought for Greece whose economy was destroyed by the single currency, which enriched Germany

The same was happening to Italy & Spain before the virus which has escalated their problems

However despite EU 'solidarity' Germany, Holland and the other rich northern countries are still resisting the only viable way of dealing with linking disparate economies in a single currency

That is by adopting common fiscal and monetary policies i.e Euro Bonds

However the rich Northern countries are not prepared to link their economies to the poorer southern ones in this way

Therefore Italy and Spain's economies will continue to decline and anti EU sentiment build without any racist link required

Tue 19 May 2020, 14:21

Alice, you sum it up perfectly. I find it somewhat ironic that Priti Patel, who appears to be the person in charge of this vile piece of legislation, is of Ugandan-Indian extract; one cannot help comparing her policies with those of Ugandan dictator Idi Amin in expelling Ugandan Asians in the early 1970's. (Indeed, at that time, my Mother helped at Greenham Common, which was used as a base to house and resettle many of the resulting refugees.)

What perhaps saddens me most about this is that it has come about due to an underlying "attitude" in many people of this nation. And the underlying "flavour" of that attitude is - sadly - racist. And I know that many feel the same as I do, and are embarrassed by it.

And before anyone of the opposite persuasion complains, yes, I *will* abide by the majority vote. But I will continue to oppose it with every breath in my body, and I hope that those who feel the same way will continue to fly EU flags, and campaign too! 

Tue 19 May 2020, 14:03

I think you will find that in these 32 countries (EU + EFTA) there are democracies which respect the vote of the majority.

Tue 19 May 2020, 13:24

I'm not

Tue 19 May 2020, 12:34

But, luckily, the freedom to live in a democracy where the vote of the majority is honoured!

Tue 19 May 2020, 11:53

Absolutely.

Tue 19 May 2020, 11:35

What a lot of debate about freedoms being restricted.  Freedom to release carbon into the atmosphere by flying and driving, freedom to endanger lives by riding too fast on motorbikes or standing too close in supermarket queues, freedom to walk on field edges.

Yesterday another huge freedom was taken away from us.  The freedom to live and work in 32 other countries.  The freedom to provide for ones families by following the work.  The freedom to engage with different cultures and to learn and expand our restricted horizons.  Why aren’t the residents of Charlbury really angry about that one?  I know I am.