What could our shopkeepers learn? (Debate)

Fri 8 May 2020, 12:26

During the lockdown I have done nearly all my shopping in Charlbury with just one trip to Chippy. I have enjoyed: sourdough bread from Deep, fresh seasonal veg from Styan Family Produce, beer from the Rose And Crown, pizza from The Bull, refills from SESI, a takeaway from Fiveways, eggs, cheese and veg from Charlbury Deli  - which have all supplemented what I can buy at the Coop or Londis. Maybe more expensive but no car journeys and more fun. I realise not everyone can afford this, wish there was something we could do about this. Thanks to all our local businesses for keeping us fed!

Wed 6 May 2020, 15:49

I was pleasantly surprised to find things I can’t get at CoOp, like Romaine lettuce at Londis so I’ve been able to get all my food needs without leaving Charlbury. Friends who do go shop I g ask me if I need anything but it’s all at the COOp, Deli or Londis. Plus Grimsby Fish monger on Tuesdays now takes orders.  And my neighbours added me to his Milkman order.  

It’s worth a try. It’s a good walk and they could use your business. 

And the last place I want to be is in a big store CoOp or otherwise. Just sayin. 

Sun 3 May 2020, 08:44

I forgot to add the chip shop.

Sun 3 May 2020, 08:36 (last edited on Sun 3 May 2020, 08:37)

Ambrose’s was a wonderful shop, Philip, and sorely missed for many years! We came here when there were 3 grocers plus a little co-op, a greengrocer, butcher, baker, deli, electrical shop, newsagents, hairdressers, barber, curtain shop, shoe shop, building society, bank, 5 pubs, beautician,  to name some of the local businesses. The gradual decline of the shops was the main topic of conversation for years as they nearly all disappeared.

 Market Street stood up to its name in those days, people walked down and shopped, and it was quite a social event on a Saturday morning. Going to the bakers was a special treat on Saturdays.

We have seen many retailers come and go since those original shops closed, and very few succeeded in the long term. There were even two florists here for a time. Most of the shop premises have become dwellings.

Thu 30 Apr 2020, 18:58

My uncle once ran a hardware shop in the centre of Charlbury. Residents were more than happy to bring him their electric kettle when it needed a new element, which he fitted for free. However, when they bought a new kettle, they did so in Witney as it was a £1 or so cheaper and much the same price as he paid to his electrical wholesaler for the same product. The cost in time and money of the round trip to Witney did not feature in their calculations "as we were going there anyway". The shop lost money for years and eventually closed. 

Now Witney is coming under the same pressures as people turn to the likes of Amazon - a company that employs no local people and is registered in Luxembourg for tax purposes. Companies should pay tax where their customer is located, not their HQ. 

Unfortunately I have no confidence that local shopping a) has increased in total value or b) will last once lockdown ends. Consumer behaviour would have to change markedly and durably.

The other thing that would have to change if local shops are to survive is Business Rates. It makes no sense to suck the life blood out of the High Street, leaving the custom to be sucked up by internet shopping delivered from large regional warehouses that pay far less per square metre in rent and rates.

Thu 30 Apr 2020, 13:33

Good thinking there Rod, but I think Charlbury is too small for that. It could however work in Chipping Norton...

Thu 30 Apr 2020, 11:10

To try to answer the original question, what might the shopkeepers learn? As others have pointed out, they are too small – even collectively but especially the Co-op – to provide even for all of our food & domestic needs, however you choose to define ‘needs’.  Then again, who says…

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Wed 29 Apr 2020, 17:30 (last edited on Thu 30 Apr 2020, 08:12)

I want to respond to Liz with a discussion about what changes do we want to see? The larger supermarket isles are full of different products, but look closer. Many of the shelves contain just processed foods, and the ingredients are actually often combinations of the same few things: corn, sugar, soya, wheat and a few others. The typical western diet has become a mix of just a few ingredients. Those raw ingredients are typically comparatively cheap, with the "value" added in processing. Much of the apparent choice is actually only between different brands of basically the same product.

At the same time the diversity of fresh ingredients has reduced over the years, what remains are ingredients that store most easily.

This food system has helped create an obesity epidemic. The profits go to the food processors - but the costs of ill health fall on the rest of  society. 

So my vision is for more choice, but its a choice where there is more diversity of actual raw foods and less shelf space for duplicates of prepared meals.

But this is really hard, especially for the smaller stores in Charlbury where there is only limited shelf space for products that don't sell very often, and which perish quickly. The alternative to long-life products can be high levels of food waste.

And finally we need to recognise that we all live very different lives. Some people live in a flat with just a microwave, others on their own perhaps with very tight household budgets, and/or work variable hours. It is easy to talk about choice, but for some people its very tough. Any solution needs to address their needs..  

Wed 29 Apr 2020, 10:37

Liz L says: "Change has to come, but we have to find a way to make it both acceptable and inclusive".

So how do we do that?  Question to all....

Tue 28 Apr 2020, 09:32 (last edited on Tue 28 Apr 2020, 18:14)

All your concerns are entirely valid, Liz R. I am certainly not a climate change denier as you know and don't believe most people in Charlbury are either.  The question is how we go about creating change which people can go along with. We have seen how hard it is for some people to stay in lockdown, and we have to be mindful that our lives are all different and we all have different pressures and needs. Change has to come, but we have to find a way to make it both acceptable and inclusive.

Tue 28 Apr 2020, 08:54

Ooh, we are well off-topic now! Re noodles, it may be nice to be able to buy them in Charlbury, but they are hardly the local staple diet.

I revert to my earlier point about considering what you are buying and where it has been made / grown. There is usually a national or local alternative, whether it's a new Mini or a sack of spuds. 

We will need to think this way if we are to get the UK economy out of this Covid19 hole, whether its consumer goods from China or tasteless green beans airfreighted from Peru.

Tue 28 Apr 2020, 08:28

I'm sorry that I come over preachy.  It's years of being aware that we are sleepwalking into destroying life on the planet.  I've learned that being provocative is what generates debate.  I vividly remember two or three years ago being at a debate between a senior executive from Jaguar-Leyland and the director of an influential transport design consultancy.  The consultant pointed out to Jaguar-Leyland that there is not a car advert that shows more than one car on the road at any one time, yet the car problem is one of congestion and poor air quality.  I've watched car adverts more closely since, and he's absolutely right.  We're sold individual choice of collective impact and well-being.

Tue 28 Apr 2020, 00:21

Richard, please can you give me a reason why this thread is allowed to run on when numerous others have not? I thought we wanted peace love and harmony round here!

Thanks 

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 21:32

I agree with Steve and with Hannen. What a shame that there can't be a rational discussion and a listening to and respecting of different views and an avoidance of becoming personal about such an issue. To solve problems, you need to be able to see and understand the big picture. 

We are living in a new world and may have to get used to a new normal. And this may prove difficult and challenging for many. We may not get back to the way we lived before COVID 19 for a long time, if ever. 

In terms of food availability, we may have to recognise the difference between what we NEED and what we  WANT. And then we may have to decide whether the COST of what we want is worth it. 

The current lockdown has certainly made me re-appraise what my household eats in terms of availability. This, and patronising local shops such as Five Ways, since I am currently avoiding large supermarkets, has been an interesting learning curve. If something is not available, I will change the planned menu or possibly the recipe.   

 Equally, I recognise that for others travelling to a large supermarket is a more effective way of shopping. 

And whilst organic may be considered the best option, for many families it is too costly for their budget and (as per my expert resident agronomist, and producers I know)  you couldn't feed the world's population relying on organically produced food. 

There is no magic formula, but perhaps by being tolerant and listening,  understanding and respecting competing views an acceptable compromise might be achieved. 

As Jimi Hendrix is credited as saying "Knowledge speaks, wisdom listens".

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 20:33

Green pea pasta 

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 18:30

Well Donald Trump played his 'trump card' with "I was only being sarcastic"

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 17:05

I will require full body armour and better life insurance before I even attempt to intervene in a debate between Mike and Liz R…

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 16:20

Did this all simply start with a shortage of noodles?  :-)

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 15:23

I think this debate is getting rather too personalised.

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 15:06

Noted Michael, and as a shareholder of the Deli (albeit only a small number of shares).

But I think Liz and Stephen cycled to Witney to get them which shows integrity, determination, and stamina!  Although, as I've already pointed out, not everyone is able-bodied enough to do that.

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 12:58

As a director of one of the local shops Ms Reason thinks she needs to educate, I might explain the background to her complaint

Two weeks ago, Ms Reason asked the Deli to stock noodles (by which she meant the Asian egg noodles you use for stir-fry). Of which we'd sold precisely one packet in the whole of 2018 and 2019. 

But at the beginning of lock-down, we assumed demand would return and bought all we could, sold out by the end of March, then spent several weeks trying to find a supplier prepared to deliver new stock. Even though stores in Witney were being supplied: food suppliers, understandably, prioritise their biggest customers when products are in short supply 

I emailed this to Ms Reason, and - because we're here to help Charlburians, not squeeze out the last penny of potential sales - added that sadly, she'd probably find them in Witney.

"We don't use the car to shop" she replied. No "thanks"; no "any idea when you might get them?" Just a piece of curt, gratuitous, virtue signalling.

On April 25, a supplier finally delivered Blue Dragon Egg Noodles, and Lynne Stubbles told Ms Reason. 

Who replied "Oh, I've already bought them from Waitrose" 

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 09:34

A local motoring enthusiast I know well always make sure he has the roof down and the air con on full blast to mitigate any global warming effect when driving. Top tip!

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 08:51

And on the other side of the same coin, what could we as consumers learn from this pandemic?  I do not imagine that I am alone in being rather less keen to buy goods that have been produced in a totalitarian state and then shipped halfway across the world?

Probably for the Debate page?

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 08:37

Shouldn't this be on the debate thread?

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 08:25

I can assure you that I am fully aware of what shops are open in Charlbury and in villages like Chadlington and the Wychwoods and I do not jump in my car to go elsewhere without a good 'Reason'.

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 08:11

My concern is that people are reliant on their cars where climate change action requires this to change.  For that to happen, people will need local shops to serve their needs.  I speak to a lot of people about this - sorry is it comes over as telling off - and people don't even know that food shops are open or what they stock before they jump into their cars and go elsewhere.  Slatters does not sell organic meats.  I was there last week to ask. 

Mon 27 Apr 2020, 08:01

I wasn't being entirely serious, Hannen!

Sun 26 Apr 2020, 21:00

Organic cocoa nibs

Sun 26 Apr 2020, 19:30

Agree with Liz L and Christine and Janet.

Alan, I take your point, but as others have mentioned, sometimes it's just not physically possible to walk or cycle.  For some.  Let alone buy (relatively) heavy groceries and try to get them home to Charlbury.

Like Christine, I voluntarily opted for self-isolation a week before the official lockdown.

I have a problem with my back which makes it impossible to even walk into Charlbury.  I have no choice but to use the car.  I have been to Chippy twice in 5 weeks.  The first time I was stopped by the Police and when I explained my "predicament" they waved me on.  My lovely Wife does what she can, which is a lot, but for prescriptions, I'm relying on the Community Centre volunteer thing as I find it painful to park at Spendlove, walk, and then queue at the Pharmacy.  Such a brilliant amenity.

I was going to be seen by a Consultant at the JR, but of course that's not going to happen anytime soon.  Like my referral for glaucoma, and my bowel cancer test.  I have letters from the NHS confirming this.

Yes, the local shops are doing a fantastic job but I still wonder why the Co-op stocks e.g. prawns from Vietnam or Thailand.  As Janet suggests, why?  We could all just be a little bit more imaginative and self-sufficient and rely on locally grown food.  Good all round I think!  

Let's be slow to judge. Everyone has their challenges in these strange times.  It would be good if we could look back and think that we were kind and tolerant towards each other.  

Sun 26 Apr 2020, 18:10 (last edited on Sun 26 Apr 2020, 18:13)

It's fanciful to suppose that our small Coop, plus 5 Ways, the Deli, the Pharmacy, the Rose & Crown etc., can stock everything needed -- let alone wanted -- by the residents of Charlbury. It's also is fanciful to suppose that what the Coop stocks might be determined by listing things like organic chicken. It's the Co-op's centralised computer system that generally decides what sells best and where. It's the same centralised system that has recently reduced the staffing levels & hasn't yet (I think) introduced screens between the customers and staff. 

I might be wrong about the screens, since I haven't been into Charlbury Co-op since I started self-isolating in the middle of March: a week before others joined me. Actually, I haven't been into any shop; but if I did go for groceries, it would ideally be to Chippy Co-op (lots of air and space) or to Witney (if my current online ordering system through Waitrose, plus the Milkman, back-up Sainsbury's, fails). 

I don't think anyone should be made to feel guilty for travelling by car for essential food shopping or pharmacy goods. We have, after all, not opted for the Italian system where one needs a completed administrative form in order to go outside the home. Thank goodness!

I'm pleased that the Co-op and the other shops are managing to supply so many local customers. But I agree with Liz L. that this is not now, and never will be, the ideal. 

Sun 26 Apr 2020, 17:58

I support Liz's message -- we all have particular circumstances, and helping other people get the groceries they need is one good reason for driving short distances.  A crisis like this will bring out the inner prefect/police person as well as the altruist in many of us, and only the very old will remember how that used to happen in the days of food rationing.  But I'm struck by the friendliness and good humour of virtually everyone I see and have properly distanced conversations with.  And I hear so many stories of people helping each other out.  Charlbury is living up to its friendly reputation.   As a relatively recent resident, I feel extremely grateful to be here, and only wish I could do more to help.

Sun 26 Apr 2020, 16:54 (last edited on Sun 26 Apr 2020, 17:38)

I presume you are referring to our conversation yesterday, Liz. I had just come back from Chipping Norton having gone there for the first time in three weeks to shop when you saw me and I have to say I did rather feel as if I was being told off…

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Sun 26 Apr 2020, 15:32

Slaters in Chadlington is about an hours walk over the fields, or quarter of an hour by cycle on the roads - well within range so no need to drive there.

Sun 26 Apr 2020, 14:59

I agree with Janet. 

Sun 26 Apr 2020, 11:59 (last edited on Sun 26 Apr 2020, 12:01)

Or alternatively, as we can't expect local shops to stock everything we all want, perhaps we should consider changing our shopping habits and go simpler, like our parents did, and creating our menus around what can be bought locally and what is available seasonally. Had we done this over the years we would probably have retained more shops and had more choice today. 

And for free range chicken - try Slatters of Chadlington.

Sat 25 Apr 2020, 13:50

Several people have told me that they have to drive to Witney or Chippy to buy foods they can't get in Charlbury.  I'm wondering what these are.  Perhaps we can create a list and our shops will notice and start supplying them.

An organic free-range chicken!