Butcher closure

Fri 20 Oct 2006, 22:15

(abusive posting deleted)

Tue 17 Oct 2006, 02:44

I step out for a minute to buy some sausages and look what happens!
;-)

I agree with Richard that Forums are often full of lively discussion and open disagreements. What I don't appreciate is when these disagreemetns get overblown and overtly hostile and personalised due to other agendas. That's called flaming where I'm from and is considered bad 'net-tiquette'

To anyone interested in how food purchases are changing and how small businesses are adapting to changing markets. The Guardian last Saturday published a very useful food directory sponsored by the Real Food Movement (origininated in Italy, I believe). It lists a number of locally sourced and organic butchers in this area including

Glebe Farm in Spelsbury coldronbrookmeats.co.uk and in Wantage realfarmfoods.co.uk, both of which I note take online orders and do minimum order deliveries in NW Oxfordshire. Another reality local businesses need to take on board.

I don't really want to get into a class related thread except to say that without exception, no matter the topic of discussion I get into whether on this forum or off line in Charlbury it always seems to ultimately gravitate towards a discussion about class.

I think an outsider wouldn't be too far amiss to categorise it as nearly a local obsession.

And IMHO, a bad one; mainly because it's ill-defined, parochial, archaic, anti-egalitarian and at it's core, anti-human being.

But maybe I just don't know my place.

Fri 13 Oct 2006, 14:11

What a good idea Richard. Now that I'm commuting to London every day, I dont get in until at least 7pm. The only shops open then are the Co-op and Fiveways. As you say, if people go there one, they stay and buy everything else they need. Perhaps the other remaining shops we still have left in Charlbury should take note of this.

Regarding all the vociferous comments on whether people are "middle class" or not, really has nothing to do with this thread!

Fri 13 Oct 2006, 13:33

To deal with the forum stuff first. I try to keep a fairly light touch in moderating it, as this isn't my personal fiefdom, it's the town's website. It is, however, unrealistic to think that the Charlbury Website can be immune from standard Internet forum patterns of behaviour. (That said…

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Fri 13 Oct 2006, 12:04

Jon: what I meant was that the thought of people being dissuaded from participating in this forum by the threat of being "roughed up" in print was laughable. I wasn't saying that it would be laughable if it actually happened, of course it wouldn't; I just don't think it would, that's all. If you look back at this year's threads I think you will see that people (myself included) have only been "mugged" to use your word when they have posted comments that others have deemed to be immoral, objectionable, etc. Measured, reasonable, informed comment tends to be allowed to go through unmolested, as it should. People of Charlbury: you have nothing to fear from the gremlins of the Net!

Now, to get back to the subject and to the point you were making: I spoke to John Brain last week and he thinks that it is very unlikely that another shop will open in his place, at least in the short term.

Fri 13 Oct 2006, 10:13

Derek -- I think you make my point for me. I accept your assertion that you are not middle class, though it was an easy mistake to make. And by the way, other people's sensitivities are not 'laughable', which is the point I was trying get across. That's all. Now perhaps someone can say something about the matter of the butcher's closure and the future of shops in this town.

Thu 12 Oct 2006, 21:37

Jon - I assume that your criticisms are largely aimed at me and Igor. I'm sure Igor is quite capable of defending himself but I'd like to respond to your comments. I think it is the first time I've ever been referred to as either a yob, a mugger or…

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Wed 11 Oct 2006, 15:55

What a pity that a subject as important to so many of us as the closure of the butcher's shop is taken as a pretext by one or two testosterone-fuelled men to conduct a fatuous battle in public. Being a shopkeeper in the town myself, I know that a lot…

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Sun 8 Oct 2006, 18:58

Igor - so that we can both enjoy the luxury of agreeing on something, I do agree with you that small shops have to adapt in order to survive in the current cut-throat retail environment.

John Brain told me that when the new Co-op opened it wasn't his takings on meat that suffered at first but sales of all the other things he sold in the shop, many of which were also of course stocked by the Co-op. I know nothing about the butcher's trade and precious little about the retail business in general but if I had been impertinent enough to offer advice to John Brain at the time I would have advised him to (i) stop selling fruit and veg as the Co-op had a bigger, better selection; (ii) stop selling bread and cakes as the Good Food Shop did this just as well; (iii) offer a much broader range of meat and meat products, from the "cheap and cheerful" end of the market to the "connoisseur"-type products which would have appealed to any epicures that may reside in Charlbury. I don't know if Charlbury is ready for this type of butcher's shop but it would be worth trying by someone, so long as they don't have too much to lose by doing so.

One other thing - is there a chance now that the Farmer's Market may become monthly rather than quarterly as at present?

Sun 8 Oct 2006, 15:47

ok so every body disagrees lets face facts the day of the small shopkeeper is gone so igor tells me do not live in the past .ido and always will people live a fast pace of life and time is a big factor. if you can go to one super market and do aweeks shopping in twenty minutes job done. iam suprised pratleys dairies is still going. what you have to reaise is that charlbury is going the same way as burford a qauint little cotswold town for the tourists to pass through without spending money. we were considering relocating our business back to charlbury but industrie is dead.so prepare yourselves for the inevitable antique shops and book shops . charlbury can be proud in the history books.

Sun 8 Oct 2006, 10:54

Fair enough.

I took your 'rephrasing' of my comments as antagonistic; if they weren't intended as such, my mistake.

However, getting back to the point I'm trying to make in this disucussion, which you appear(I'm just not sure anymore!), to be refuting:

Food purchase habits have changed and are changing across the board.
Whether you want to call it 'urban-oriented' or whatever, the growing number of families that can order weekly deliveries of say organic produce from Riverford (as just one example), is part of that change.

Unless local shops are wiling to adapt to thses changes in the market and compete with other suppliers of what consumers want, they will not survive.

Emphasising locally sourced produce and making it available to customers who are sometimes commuting distances to and from work, is one way of meeting demand.

No intelligence is required: it's what we used to call a 'no-brainer'.

Sat 7 Oct 2006, 12:53

Igor: I was reinterpreting your views for comic effect. You have accused me before now on this forum of having a sense-of-humour failure and you seem to have the same affliction this morning! Maybe I am just not intelligent enough to grasp your meaning but I think that, with due…

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Sat 7 Oct 2006, 09:24

Thirdly, Igor's contention that affluent metrosexuals are streaming out of London, taking up residence in Charlbury and then throwing their hands up in horror because John Brain's shop doesn't stock the same range of produce they are used to finding in Villandry or Fortnum and Mason is a typically bizarre one.

Bizarre, because I never said that.
Who shops at Fortnum and Mason's besides tourists anyway?

'Typically bizzare' goes alot towards revealing your prejudices towards any opinion I express.

Derek, before you start taking pokes at every post I submit to this forum; you might actually want to read what I say first instead of paraphrasing a completely innacurate caricature of my opinion and then criticizing your own distorted version of it.

If you don't believe there's a changing demographic in rural England and a revolution in food purchases across the country, I don't know where you've been living.

But the reality of those changes are topics of discussion for the Chambers of Commerce in both Chalbury and Chippy.

It's a reality retailors who want to survive (not just in Charlbury), have to confront.

That's the point.

Fri 6 Oct 2006, 19:34

in 1996 when i left charlbury slatters from chadlington had taken over the butchers shop. keith chapman and mr simmonds had run that shop ever since i can remember. there was another butchers shop opposite icannot remember the name of.both establishments made a living but in those days you could park your car any where in charlbury no yellow lines.any way if slatters could not make a living out of it nobody can.

Thu 5 Oct 2006, 17:02

Can I put right a few things that have been said on this topic? Firstly, I wasn't suggesting for a moment that the Co-op were solely responsible for putting Brain's out of business: I'm sure the situation is more complicated than that. However, John himself told me that he noticed…

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Thu 5 Oct 2006, 15:18

I suspect that John was not only having to deal with competition from supermarkets, but also from Slatter's in Chadlington (next to the Village Stores). Slatters is a really excellent local butcher which in my experience has a very impressive range of seasonal fresh, frozen and deli meats and it would be terrible if it disappeared too. For those of us with transport in Charlbury who still want to shop as close to home as possible, I recommend transferring to Slatter's if Brain's is sadly to close. You could even bike it if you were keen...

Thu 5 Oct 2006, 09:28

Graham, talk to John; but in a nutshell the food supply chain is a margins game. John buys wholesale and then prepares the product for display making a standard margin profit. If his wholesale cost goes up, then he passes the price increase down to the customer. The Co-op buys a much greater quantity and has the clout of volume purchase; so if the supplier's prices goes up, the Co-op has leverage to even switch suppliers. Niether the Co-op nor John Brain would maintain any margin if one were to supply the other.

What I think John should have done was to focus on the organic and locally sourced 'branded' products, increase his advertising to convey that to a wider catchment area and raised his prices to accomodate the more specialist demand and pay for the marketing.

A decent deli counter wouldn't have gone amiss either.

As customers we would have had the choice between the cheaper, distantly sourced meat (e.g. Nw Zealand lamb)or for a few pennies more, locally sourced Ditchly beef, decent sausages, small producer Welsh lamb, local eggs, local chickens.

As Jamie Oliver has demonstarted, when given the choice, customers will spend more for better quality produce, providing they're informed and it's accesible.

Of course I understand that this was just half the story, the little matter of inflated Charlbury commercial rent and rates is also a disincentive to establishing stable businesses.

When local commercial property owers would rather keep commercial premises empty for years upon year rather than lower their rates, shorten their tenancy contracts or accomodate the restrictions of small start up businesses and entrepreneurs, it's small wonder that small businesses struggle in Charlbury.

Wed 4 Oct 2006, 18:17

I wasn't blaming the Co-op but is there any reason why John could not supply them and allow them to improve and increase selection of meat.

Wed 4 Oct 2006, 13:15

It is a real shame that John's business is closing and I agree with you Igor that it is too simplistic to blame the Coop for this. John wanted to run his business without making too many changes or trying things like different opening times, deliveries, etc. and that was fair enough - but it will be difficult to convince another butcher to open in his place. The Coop does sell a limited range of supermarket style meat but it is hardly a substitute.

I don't know whether you have noticed that New Barn Garage in Nine acres is now selling frozen meat (mainly pork I think) from their own farm.

Wed 4 Oct 2006, 10:48

John Brain's closure is cause for concern and my family will certainly miss his free range chickens and occasional Ditchley beef.

But having spoken to John over the years about ways in which he could maintain and improve his business, I have to say that the causes for small shop closures in rural communities is not all down to people shopping at Tesco.

There's a changing demographic in Oxfordshire as more and more urban-oriented families move to the countryside bringing their buying tastes and preferences with them. The businesses that will survive in rural communities are the ones who adapt to the changing market rather than dwelling in nostalgia for a different time and different type of customer.

This is compounded by the fact that when it comes to food there's been a revolution in buying habits and the kinds of products families are wiling to put their tables.

I think that small businesses that are aware of these newly forming demands will survive.

But I will miss John and his sons who were always helpful on special orders,friendly when they had the time to be and (even when they didn't have the time), always respectfull in their manner and their service.

Mon 2 Oct 2006, 22:40

Is there any reason why the Coop cannot support John, as do News & Things with newspapers and magazines. Surely it would be beneficial to both parties.

Mon 2 Oct 2006, 21:55

I fear that it almost certainly will be a permanent closure Katie. I saw the notice yesterday and although I haven't been into the shop today I know from talking to John Brain a number of times over recent months that he was seriously thinking about selling up. Unfortunately I think his trade has dwindled to such an extent that it is probably no longer economic for him to continue running the shop. I find it sad that a town the size of Charlbury cannot support one butcher's shop. I grew up in a town about twice the size of this one and we had six butchers! However, they have now all closed down as the town in question has been taken over by the mighty Waitrose. Something similar seems to have happened here with the Co-op: I know that John Brain noticed a sharp drop in trade when the new shop opened in 2004.

It's a great shame for me. As I don't possess a car I can't just jump into my 4x4 and nip off to Oxford or Witney every time I need to restock the freezer. Unfortunately too many Charlbury residents seem to do just that and consequently local shops go out of business. One feels sorry also for the pensioners who relied on John's shop for their pork chops and slices of ham. Very sad. Let's just hope that a new butcher's shop opens in Charlbury before too long and is better supported than the last one.

Mon 2 Oct 2006, 17:47

There is a sign up at Brains saying they are closing later this month. Is this a permanent closure?