Recycling: best practice or a shameful business?

Fri 18 Nov 2011, 16:29

I much prefer the lids, when the boxes get rained on I invariably tip water all over my legs as I keep forgetting about the drainage holes!

Fri 18 Nov 2011, 11:04

Actually, we have the nets on both our boxes and to be honest they work very well and I feel better than the lids as they don't go astray or get broken.

Thu 17 Nov 2011, 15:56

Thanks Glena! I have mended one of my lids with duct tape and it seems to be OK. Better than a net I think.

Thu 17 Nov 2011, 11:04

A lids' update !!! I got cold feet after I told you,Jon, that you could get lids by calling in to the WODC Town Centre shop so I checked up this morning. You can't get lids from them anymore but you can get nets. I asked them why we are being encouraged to go over to nets and they said they are not fragile (which they had complaints about re lids !!!), they are much cheaper and they can be fixed to the side of the box so they don't blow away. Also with nets, more can be put in the boxes.
I remenber being anti nets when we discussed it on Env. as things get wet. When I put this to the v. helpful person I was talking to she said that didn't matter. I said kind peoople in Charlbury were already agitated enough about the binmen without thinking of them handling soggy recycling---but she said that was OK. Not sure myself but there we are.
I asked her for the record why spare lids had been delivered with boxes (a waste of money ?)---she said that as boxes were slightly differing sizes the lids and boxes were delivered together to avoid the problem of giving someone the wrong size---which another reason why the net system is cheaper. She said that if someone was v. keen to have a lid they could ring the WODC number--01993 861000---and they could see what they could do.
I now know more about lids and nets than I want to !!!! Please come to 'Dear Brutus' next week in which there are no lids, nets or boxes !!

Wed 16 Nov 2011, 19:28

Thanks for the tip about box lids. I will get two next time I'm in Witney. Hey, who said the forum doesn't tell you anything useful?

I don't criticise the men doing the work. I think it's a hell of a job, and as for the driver climbing in and out of his cab every couple of minutes...

And when I get my stickers I'll put them on my new lids (or the sides of the boxes: I hope it explains which is more ergonomic!).

Wed 16 Nov 2011, 13:54

Pleased to receive a large helpful sticker this morning from the District Council giving us information on how to sort. But sharp eyed-readers will notice that it totally contradicts previous information on sorting with 2 boxes.

I've contacted the District Council who have confirmed that the new stickers show the best way. So forget Box 1 paper,glass Box 2 plastic, cans, cardboard - it is now Box 1 paper ,cans, plastic and Box 2 Glass and cardboard. Unless you have three boxes then cardboard goes separately and the other two boxes are how they were before! Everyone clear??

Wed 16 Nov 2011, 11:48

Oh help !! I've been here before so many times. I have no interest in defending the indefensible and, as we have a Tory WODC, I have no personal axe to grind (except that I was--and am--on the Environment committee which helped to develop the new waste contract. Still, as…

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Wed 16 Nov 2011, 11:31

Jon apparently you can ask the council to deliver you free nets which you tie to the top of the boxes. It won't stop the stuff getting wet, but it does seem to stop it flying around the street while waiting to be collected.

I think the stickers go on the sides of the boxes, although what happens when your box blows away in the winter I don't know.... perhaps they replace box, sticker and lid/net?

I think everybody is being unnecessarily unfair to the men on the trucks..... Have none of you ever driven along the road between Finstock and Charlbury, or Spelsbury and Chippy, where there are no houses but you can tell the trucks have been along because of the trails of recyling? It's the design of the trucks that is at fault, although the men may not be helping. It happened before this company took over as well.

Tue 15 Nov 2011, 18:53 (last edited on Tue 15 Nov 2011, 18:54)

Well, May Gurney are -- we were told -- a wonderful employer with low staff turnover. All I can say is that the lorry that comes round here still has a staff of two, one of whom is the driver who has to clamber in and out of his cab every few yards. They are understaffed, leave a trail of minor debris, and have broken the lids of my boxes so the contents now get wet when when it rains. (Why did WODC purchase boxes with fragile lids? Another council officer -- or another politician, as the case may be -- with thousands of pounds of wasted money (yours and mine) on their CV.)

I did once phone WODC and ask for two replacement lids, but I was delivered two more whole boxes (with fragile lids). I guess that once you're into wasting money (and materials), you just keep wasting it. Funny that they create so much waste in the process of recycling.

At least the wheelie bins seem up to the job.

I see we're getting splendid colourful stickers to put on our black boxes to identify the waste in each. Pity most of us have lost our lids so have nothing to put the stickers on. Impressive way of spending money, though. Now I wonder if there's a way of recycling the stickers ... ?

Wed 13 Jul 2011, 19:32

Help !! Somewhere in cyberspace is a post of mine saying what Richard has just kindly said----which is what I got from the head of recycing this a.m. when I made enquiries. I wonder where it went ??

Wed 13 Jul 2011, 14:47

I think www.westoxon.gov.uk/furtherinfo/whatsnew.cfm/961 probably explains it:

"Three more recycling trucks will be joining West Oxfordshire's waste collection fleet as recycling rates continue to rise across the district.

"The new vehicles will be on the road at the end of July and will help the waste and recycling collection service we offer to residents. In the meantime, additional trucks have been hired-in temporarily to help with collections. These hire-vehicles are a different type to those normally used by the council as they will be collecting all recycling together in one compartment at the back of the truck. It will then be sent to a sorting centre before going on to a re-processor."

Wed 13 Jul 2011, 11:38

Sounds wrong---will make enquiries.

Wed 13 Jul 2011, 10:06

I saw the normal kerbside-sorting type making its way down Pooles Lane yesterday, and also saw one in Combe later on.

Wed 13 Jul 2011, 09:27

Has anyone yet ascertained from the Council whether this is a permanent change in the way recyclabes are collected?

Tue 12 Jul 2011, 17:01

Graham, I saw similar at 5 ways...all being chucked into a big green bin...begs the question why cant we have a big bin instead of those black boxes if that is what they are going to do? I would prefer that...they take up less space and are easier to move.

Tue 12 Jul 2011, 09:43

This morning's black box recycling collection threw all materials together into the same single-compartment vehicle (looked like a normal, grey-bin, waste collection one). What has happened to the roadside (or any other kind of) sorting of recyclables?

Wed 13 Apr 2011, 23:01

Far be it for me to discourage compassion but, in the interest of bringing more light rather than heat into this thread, I contacted the relevant top official at WODC for some specific answers to specific questions.

1) With regard to Jon C's original point re the position of the 'windows' and the effort of getting stuff from the boxes into them, I quote---'The vehicles used by May Gurney for their kerbside recycling have been extensively researched and ergonomically designed to meet the needs of the operatives and to maximise caopacity. So, in short, yes---the windows are at the right height. The hooks where they rest the boxes have also been designed so as to be 'comfortable' for the operatives to work from. Lots of other waste companies are trying to copy this model---which, in my view, speaks volumes.

2) The 40 second question----'40 seconds is the average time it should tkae an experienced operative to empty a box----but we are not pressing this and it's certainly not mandatory.' So---40 seconds per box(if possible), not per household.

3) The weight of the black boxes does not seem to be a problem.

4) Is this a job we should ask anyone to do ? The turnover of staff is neglicible which suggests that they are reasonably content.

5) He adds that if the comments imply (as one indeed did) that we ought to have comingled recyclates in wheeled bins, this would be unsatisfactory. The new contract is based on clean recyclates being sorted at the kerbside and this has much greater value than comingled recyclates. So---I would add that as it has extra value, that money can help WODC to maintain services, give grants to local bodies and do all the other things it does.

Tue 12 Apr 2011, 23:25

This timetabling of collections blocking major traffic chokepoints by rubbish collection in the morning rush hour has been mentioned before. I believe one of the councillors was going to bring the issue to the attention of the schedulers. They didn't turn up here at The Green until well into the afternoon... what if anything came of this undertaking? I believe Suzie Finch brought the issue up at the time months ago.

Tue 12 Apr 2011, 21:14

....and when I was walking to the station for the 06.34 this morning, two cars came the wrong way up Brown's Lane. Why? Because the recyclers were blocking Market Street and it must be assumed the drivers were frustrated. What a time to choose to block a key artery for cars trying to reach the station. Driving the wrong way along Brown's Lane is not condoned! Apparently 50 mins later the lorry was causing an obstruction in Dyers' Hill.

Tue 12 Apr 2011, 11:00

Christine's news item read as follows (in part):

"The contractors, May Gurney, have a dedicated collection team of about 30 operators and who are working towards just 40 seconds to empty the black boxes per household - currently it is taking over 2 minutes per household."

Mon 11 Apr 2011, 22:54

Lets get this straight are we referring to 40 seconds per bin or per household 'cos we just put out 3 bins all nicely organised for sorting. That would be 20 seconds per bin, picked up, carried to lorry, hooked up on side, emptied by contents sorting into the right receptacle, carried around the other side of the lorry if not carefully sorted in the bin, picked and slotted, and then the bin returned to somewhere near the house it was collected from. Sounds like wage slavery to me and 12 hour days even with overtime at that pace of work will destroy peoples' health in short order even if they are paid overtime. What evil have the Tories wrought in the sake of a penny off the rates?

Mon 11 Apr 2011, 21:49

I was chatting to one of them last week and he said that before they used to finish at 2pm, but now it can take them until 6pm. However, he did say that they get overtime after 2pm, so that suggests it is at least in addition to their basic pay and may even be at a higher rate.

Mon 11 Apr 2011, 20:14

Yes, that's 40 seconds average to empty the 2-4 black boxes per household, according to Christine. I guess that's only meaningful if it includes the average time getting from one household to the next, and often they have to wait for the lorry to move on. In fact when one of the operatives is the driver, that's a pretty slow business. No wonder they leave the engine running while they are out of the cab.

And May Gurney are a private company, so I would assume until contradicted that their employees are not on any kind of union rates. That, after all, is precisely why so much council work has been privatised, in other words put out to tender so the work can be picked up by companies paying their workers less. It's interesting to read this report from earlier this month:

"Refuse workers in one of the Tory?s flagship councils may ballot for strike action against their employer, recycling contractor May Gurney.

"The workers have had their pay frozen since 2007 and submitted a claim for an increase to the London Living Wage around Christmas 2010. GMB organiser Keith Williams said ?I am seeking permission for an official strike ballot for these members who have seen inflation increase by 13.9% since their last pay rise. The rise in VAT, fuel charges and the general increase in the cost of living means that these GMB members are struggling to keep their heads above water.?"

So some May Gurney workers have got themselves unionised.

Mon 11 Apr 2011, 09:26

ooops - "they're on", that should read...

Mon 11 Apr 2011, 09:24

With respect, I very much doubt their on minimum pay scales - unionised labour & council workers too.....

But I agree 40 seconds per bin is unrealistic, regardless of wage!

Sat 9 Apr 2011, 22:38

40 seconds per bin! I would say that is an unrealistic and likely to be a very stressful and exhausting and unreasonable target for May Gurney to have set their operatives and, presumably, based their cost calculations upon in the lowest cost tendering process. This does strike me as exploitation of workers of the worst sort and Jon's original case about whether some work is too demeaning to be reasonably asked of people to do doesn't sound so unreasonable in light of this target that has been revealed. I don't want wage slaves working for me on minimum pay doing a dirty job in all weathers and don't mind a penny on my rates to see people reasonable remunerated with humanely achievable targets to meet!

Thu 7 Apr 2011, 19:36

Trying to be helpful, I shot myself in the foot so to speak, as by the time I telephoned Charlie, many people had taken up the offer to buy Laura's pork and there was not a lot left. well done to them for offering it via the Charlbury info.

Thu 7 Apr 2011, 19:35

Many thanks Christine, for explaining feed for pigs. Anything that helps our farmers ? helps us.

Thu 7 Apr 2011, 12:32

Feeding pigs on food waste is a really good sustainable practice, Simon Fairlie's book on Meat: A Benign Extravagance is a book I would strongly recommend. It explains well the knee-jerk EU-wide ban on feeding kitchen-waste after the Foot & Mouth incidents. But fortunately, apples aren't kitchen waste and aren't therefore banned from feeding to pigs. Converting apples to meat via pigs is very traditional: households had their apple trees and their own pig which they fed on scraps and apples.

Last autumn, Charlbury Sharecroppers was able to redirect to good use masses of apples that would otherwise have been wasted but that was just a fraction of what was being wasted. Primarily the apples were made available as apples for human consumption, picked apples for juicing, good windfalls for cider for the Beer Festival, and old windfalls and pomace after juicing for pigs for both Laura Ludlow and Pete Sullivan's pigs. This year I would like to encourage more people to make their apples available, not just the good apples for cooking, eating, and juicing but also to collect up the mucky windfalls for the local pigs who really love them, much better than putting them on compost heaps or putting them in the Green Waste bins.

Thu 7 Apr 2011, 09:02

Sorry---just realised on rereading, that my last post was rather unclear. After I explained MURFs I said that 'however, it is felt that this way is better capable of increasing the amount put out for recycling'----by 'this way' I meant, of cousre, the new system not the former mixed system.

Wed 6 Apr 2011, 21:27

See Adverts for local Eggs and Local Pork

Wed 6 Apr 2011, 19:59

I?d just like to add that Jean is absolutely right ? Charlbury is a Market Town. We need to encourage local producers ? to sell locally without adding to fuel and packaging costs, by having a weekly market, as all international (not just European) countries do. This is a prime way ? of supporting our community?s economy. Having a farmer?s market 4 times a year, is just not enough. I would like to add that Christine?s green ideas are very good. I still think that it should be our Council, who should be motoring and advising supermarkets ? to reduce their packaging. It?s their responsibility.

Wed 6 Apr 2011, 19:32

Difficult to know where to start----lots of good ideas (as ever) from Christine but, to take up Chris' point----WODC have looked at Cherwell and many, many other places. In fact, this new system has been literally years in the planning and is the result of much detailed research by the officers, and discussions on the environment committee and in council. I can remember one paper which had studied 73 ways of composting food waste so I think most angles were covered. The facility that Chris mentions, which sorts at the central base, is called a MURF and was used under the last contract for some of the recyclates. However, it is felt that this way is better capable of increasing the amount put out for recycling rather than going to landfill----which is the main idea. It seems to be working as the amount recycled is rising.

Wed 6 Apr 2011, 15:24

Oh! gosh, sorry I didn't realise this was a serious discusssion.
Actually we are discerning re-cyclers and composters but I thought the entries were getting a little too intense.
One way to shop locally without too much packaging would be to have a Farmers Market every day,or at least twice a week, in Charlbury as they do in Europe. People in France and Italy especially,only buy local regional produce and this determines the menu for the week and the dishes typical of the region. Last weekend I could have bought in Turin (OK I flew there),10 young Artichokes for 1 euro all grown under cover in Italy.Only a small percentage of food is sold in Supermarkets. Charlbury was a Market Town, bring back the Market.

Wed 6 Apr 2011, 14:51

I have just posted a News item with tips for sorting recycling in black boxes from what I found out at May Gurney last week. With the collection of food waste WODC are expecting to see the amount of waste collected from households going down in line with what other…

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Wed 6 Apr 2011, 14:23

Jon,The trouble with taking ones bottles to the Spendlove bottle bank is ones friends seeing how much you drink!

Wed 6 Apr 2011, 08:50

The WODC Councillors ought to take a look over what Cherwell DC do in the North. They collect all recyclables together and have it sorted, not at the roadside, but at a central facility, where it not only saves time in collecting, but isless labour intensive at the facility.

Something else to consider - is it greener having one vehicle come round collecting everyone's recycling or for residents to make separate trips to recycling point(s)?

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 23:52

Nobody seems to have considered the environmental costs of transporting your own recycling. Surely it is more environmentally friendly for one lorry to collect the lot from us rather than a few hundred individual car journeys - especially to the Spendlove site as short car journeys are the most damaging to the environment. By the way this is such a middle class thread; I'm just waiting for the first mention of AGAs!

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 23:27

It woz Glena who said wash it!

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 23:04

Jon, what is the lifetime environmental cost of the cycle of carefully washing the can of baked beans? Clean water processed by energy, pumped by energy, piped by embedded energy, disposed of by energy, re-used downstream by energy...Anyway didn't Warhol get there first using a can of baked beans as a symbolic icon?

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 22:21

So you were! Shucks. Well, I *meant* we have a culture of laziness, not that we are individually lazy. But we can counter it. Literally a counterculture. Hey Glena, if you take your baked bean tin to the skip in the car park, you too can be part of the counterculture. Now that's an irresistible offer. (Empty baked bean tin, of course, carefully washed and with the label removed for putting in the paper skip.)

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 21:53

Jon---presumably you are being satirical---or do I mean ironic ? When I said lazy I was quoting you.

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 20:46

Glena, I have no idea where you got the word 'lazy' from! This thread is becoming more interesting by the minute as people (politicians especially!) make more and more remarkable statements.

I am suggesting that those who can should return their recyclables to the bins either at the Spendlove or close to where they normally shop: thus far no problem, because if you can carry a full packet of Corn Flakes home, you can carry the empty carton back with you next time you shop. How radical is that!?

And I suggested having communal green bins for people who can't compost/recycle their green/kitchen waste. Wow, that's upset the apple carts.

And I've been accused (privately) of wanting to destroy jobs (no: just read what I wrote): that was from another politician.

Next thing, I'll read that I'm proposing a nuclear power station in the quarry. Now come to think of it...

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 20:31

Agree wholeheartedly with Glena's points. Have to say that re pigs' diets, although they can eat anything (pretty much), they MAY not as their feed is regulated - on of the reasons meat prices inexorably rise !

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 20:27

There are ways of sorting your recycling boxes that makes the job of the operatives much easier. There are bins for different materials on the pick up lorry and it helps if one groups types of rubbish together so that it can be put into the appropriate receptacle which are…

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Tue 5 Apr 2011, 19:56

Jon---I don't think it is all about people being lazy. It is amazing how many (even in Charlbury) have almost no garden or tiny courtyard type gardens---therefore they can't compost their green waste. Also some people are just too elderly or infirm to carry their black box materials to Spendlove. It is true that it can be a difficult and unpleasant job at times though I don't think they do find the windows 'awkwardly placed'---that is not the feedback I'm getting. Obviously we could all help by NOT putting in broken glass, making sure food containers are washed, presorting and also making sure that random unpleasnt objects do not get in with the recycling (yes, it does happen).

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 18:20

Jean, there are special composters available that will cope with meat and fat, which once and a while can be dumped onto the garden pile once the microbes have had their go.

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 16:26

Another option is to leave overpackaged goods on the supermarket shelf, or once you have paid, leave the excess package at the shop for them to deal with.
The issue really is we produce too much waste not how to recycle it. A good recycling system masks the fact we are all too keen to consumer. I include myself in this.
In the meatime WODC will supply extra boxes to anyone wanting to pre sort their recycling.

Rant over!

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 15:25

Liz: I only suggest that the council could find work that really needed doing, if we weren't such lazy buggers. I never suggested that we should eliminate jobs, only create useful ones.

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 15:10

If people want to recycle their own waste rather than have it collected, they can do so now - nothing has to change for that to happen. But by no means everyone can do that. For most of us, having a really efficient roadside collection service is a great plus, and I think the system we have now is excellent. I tried to compost all my food waste using a Bokashi system before the food collection was introduced, with very dodgy results. I compost all my veg waste but everything else is collected, which I think is great as it is now being used to create energy. The people who collect are doing a great job for the community as a whole. I certainly would not want them to be thrown out of work because we think (rather patronisingly if I may say so Jon) that what they do is humiliating!

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 14:55

Dear Chris, we are congratulating WODC, from my understanding. We are lucky ? things have improved, but we are simply trying to come up with solutions ? to save on labour, fuel and waste on both ? to help WODC ? to reduce landfill. We have to work together on this. Blue sky thoughts should never be poo ?pooed!

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 14:39

I think WODC ought to be congratulated on the new recycling scheme, rather than criticised. It is such an improvement on what we had before, and as John Munro has observed much better than many schemes around the country.

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 12:34

Seriously, don't laugh! I grew up on a farm and these are just blue sky thoughts, so bear with me. Pigs will eat anything and save the pig farmers loads of money! Chickens also eat most vegetables, except you do have boil up potato peelings! I understand that onion skins, shouldn't go into compost. Maybe we could have separate bins - for our farmers at the Coop? The cost of feeding animals is huge. Regarding garden compost - this could go to a designated Charlbury compost heap?

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 12:33

Ah, I forgot the problems you carnivores create! I used to give my meat waste to the birds, and small bones will compost. And you can compost cooked vegetables.

I'm not suggesting people be told what to do, and thereby the amount of recycling be reduced, or that fewer categories of waste should be recycled. Just that we start a cultural shift.

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 12:13

Although it may not be an ideal system, it is one of the best that I am aware of, especially with the variety of items we are allowed to recycle. Speak to many people living in different parts of the country and they say "we can't recycle this, or we can't recycle that..."
It might help the collectors if householders tried a bit of separation and maybe put different items into individual plastic carrier bags within the black boxes, but the only problem with suggesting that householders take things to a central recycling point is that a significant number won't bother and would just put those items in their grey bins to go to landfill, which would reverse the current increase in volumes being recycled - that would end up costing the council (and council tax payers) as the landfill charges would then increase.
Not sure I agree with the suggestion that kitchen waste is added to one's compost, as I thought waste cooked foods and meats especially shouldn't go on compost heaps. Vegetable peelings etc are a different matter though and definitely suitable for composting.

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 12:09

Jon, you cannot compost cooked food waste which includes animal bones and skin. While in theory your ideas are reasonable - have you tried using the bins behind the co-op recently. they are usually overflowing. Waitrose in Witney does not have recycling bins either.

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 10:13

Jon, all you have said - is what I emailed West Oxfordshire Council on Sunday. I agree with all your points and hope that this town, can come up with ideas - to help our council - to help us.

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 09:26

Carrying one's own stuff to a recycling bank would also provide an incentive to sort it out beforehand - ie paper/cardboard, glass, tins - rather than chucking it all in a heap. But if we did that anyway, it would presumably make the council round less wretched for those two men, and more efficient.

Tue 5 Apr 2011, 09:10

Am I alone in finding the present system of recycling a humiliating experience?

Two men and a lorry have just collected my recycling. It's 8.15am, I've heard the lorry round and about for an hour or more (I believe they actually start at 6: they certainly did when I lived…

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