20 MPH Signage Location

Fri 7 Jul 2023, 11:10

I've quickly  got used to the new 20 mph speed limits both here and in Witney. It feels a safe speed especially when there are people around, the extra time taken to get anywhere is minimal. 

Also been impressed how most other drivers have been following the new 20mph speed limits. 

Suspect urban 30mph limits will join mandatory seat belts, smoking bans on the underground and drink driving as initially controversial changes we later look back on and wonder why we never did them before.

Fri 7 Jul 2023, 05:12

Does anyone else get disheartened when they drive pass the speed detection sign on the Enstone Road and get a red 20 flashing. Surely as the speed limit is 20, this should be a green 20. I feel cheated every time 😂

Mon 3 Jul 2023, 18:49 (last edited on Mon 3 Jul 2023, 18:53)

I totally understand reducing speed will decrease injuries , I get that.

What I don't get , is why you would change a speed limit in a place where little ( to possibly ) no accidents occur.

I'm just trying to wrap my head around why it's changed , other than " chippy did it " , as it seems any way of seeing if it's better for pedestrians or drivers doesn't seem to be possible.

Whilst we are sharing links , I thought I would share for the benefit of both sides that IAM ( Institute Advanced Drivers). Showed accidents did increase in 20mph areas. https://roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/collisions-and-casualties-increase-in-20mph-zones-iam-3716/

Although a different can be said for this research , where accidents decreased but they openly admit, that could have been a fluke and further investigation was needed.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/757307/20mph-headline-report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjgp8XCivP_AhUngv0HHWmrA3IQFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2mgEd5NZ5bvoxblW0SHDBo

Sun 2 Jul 2023, 19:25

Sounds like a big day tomorrow. I’d better go to bed early then🤘 ☮️

Sun 2 Jul 2023, 18:56

The Economist tells us that the increased number of pedestrian deaths in the US is on account of the increased size of their vehicles.  

Sun 2 Jul 2023, 15:21

20 mph is being rolled out all over Oxfordshire, and also in many other counties. Most of London is 20 mph. Should be enough data for an impact study. 

The "black box" speed measuring device owned by OCC can I believe measure 20mph. 

Sun 2 Jul 2023, 14:47 (last edited on Sun 2 Jul 2023, 14:48)

Collisions between cars and people in Charlbury happen rarely enough that you can't hope to come up with a statistically valid result over a period of a few years, or even many years. There are also any number of confounding variables at play too.

When it comes to the efficacy of 20mph zones, then that requires a much, much wider study than could be afforded in a small place like Charlbury. However, as has been pointed out, there is less kinetic energy involved in an accident at 20mph, and also vehicles are able to stop in a much shorter distance. Further, there is evidence about the higher rate of serious injuries and deaths at higher speeds. A lot of the justification is just down to simple physics.

There is a government datasheet here about pedestrian fatalities. There is a RoSPA report on 20mph zones here. Whilst there has been a very significant drop between 2004 and 2021 (from 671 to 361), there are some countries, like Germany and the Netherlands that do considerably better (although worse overall in terms of road deaths). Some countries do a great deal worse (for example, in the USA there are 3 times as many pedestrian deaths per head of population than in the UK, which is odd for a country where, reputedly, nobody walks).

Sun 2 Jul 2023, 12:48

Alan, since existing fixed speed cameras in Oxfordshire can't distinguish between those travelling in excess of 20 mph and those travelling at 30 mph, "scientific" evidence about the efficacy of the new speed limits is going to be scanty. Mobile speed cameras will be able to detect miscreants, but otherwise not. Any data that emerges will be very provisional and seems likely to remain so for many years to come (because of the cost of replacing existing fixed speed cameras with averaging speed cameras which can detect 20mph miscreants and which do operate in some other English counties). 

Sun 2 Jul 2023, 12:18 (last edited on Sun 2 Jul 2023, 12:19)

Thank you Kim for your comment.

My post invites people interested in science to contact me while not adding specialised interest to this excellent website.

Alan Harrison

Sun 2 Jul 2023, 12:00

Alan F Harrison - I don't quite get the gist of your comment.

Sat 1 Jul 2023, 20:43

Im guessing one of the main reasons for the new speed limits is for safety of pedestrians and cyclists, .

I am wondering what / if any reduction in accidents either between cars and cars and cars and pedestrians there was during , I guess what you could call the trial period in centre of town ? 

Although I do remember the average speed being something like 20mph anyway before the signage went up so it would be difficult to compare if the signage actually did change anything as the actual speeds aren't too dissimilar. 

I'm just asking this out of pure curiosity , if it was found that by some weird reason the reduction in speed actually caused more accidents , what would happen then, would we get the 30mph back ? Or rescue everywhere to 10mph ? Or would it stay ? 

Finally , if anyone could point me in the right direction as I couldn't find it. Does anyone have the data on how many accidents caused by speed there were / have been within the confines of the town ? 

Sat 1 Jul 2023, 15:02

You can calculate the kinetic energy of a moving object with this equation: KE = ½mv2 where m is mass and v is velocity. This equation shows that an increase in velocity increases kinetic energy more than an increase in mass.

Google offers such.  Further to Kim Collery’s post, local discussion welcomed via alanfharrison@icloud.com

Sat 1 Jul 2023, 12:19 (last edited on Sat 1 Jul 2023, 18:35)

See above

Fri 30 Jun 2023, 10:02 (last edited on Sat 1 Jul 2023, 13:37)

Cyclists do, of course, have to comply with the Highway Code. That includes not cycling the wrong way up Sheep Street.

However, normal road speed limits do not apply to cyclists. That's because bicycles are not vehicles under the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986. There is also the issue that bicycles are not required to be equipped with a speedometer.

There are a some exceptions to this where speed limits are set by by-laws, such as in Richmond Park in London, where there is a 20mph limit which does apply to cyclists.

Grant Shapps also proposed last year that a law be introduced to make 20mph limits applicable to cyclists. However, that also included a review of how it would be made enforceable, including issues covering insurance, registration and some sort of identification plate, none of which I would think will happen in practice.

Thu 29 Jun 2023, 16:09

I am pleased to know the new 20mph speed limit becomes legal on 3rd July. Recently I had a collision with a pedestrian who walked on to the road without looking in my direction at 15-20mph, not only smashing my windscreen he suffered substantial head injuries and was taken to hospital. Kinetic energy is at play here, KE=1/2m v2, which means the energy is greater. I also hope the new speed limits apply to cyclists, where also I experienced a near miss with two idiots possibly doing thirty mph from Hixit Wood onto Sheep Street which is one way. Are cyclists exempt from from the Highway code?

Thu 29 Jun 2023, 11:16

And OCC have just confirmed that legally the new limit comes into force on 3 July.

Thu 29 Jun 2023, 10:26

I suspect we are nearing the end of installation - so if there are any places without signs that should have one, please contact the Town Council.

We can then see if the County can be persuaded to install them: or alternatively get some of the yellow or green plastic boards onto nearby signs (we have a stock).

Mon 12 Jun 2023, 21:37 (last edited on Tue 13 Jun 2023, 09:12)

There are currently no change of speed limit signs coming into town from the Woodstock road (even blanked out) where the speed limit is due to change from 30 to 20.

Mon 12 Jun 2023, 18:50

Liz what more signs need to go up? It really is ridiculous 

Sun 11 Jun 2023, 10:16

I do agree that it is confusing for a lot of people.  I have been asked by a number of our parents at nursery what the speed limit is with all of these painted out signs.  I don't see why these signs couldn't go up and the new speed limit be implemented within a couple of days of each other? 

Sun 11 Jun 2023, 09:42

They will be "unblanked" when all the signs are in place.  It happens wherever the new speed limit is installed.

Sun 11 Jun 2023, 09:22

When are these signs going unblanked?  I am sure I’ve never heard of this before.  It makes very confusing for the motorists. The signs have even been painted on the road!  

Sat 3 Jun 2023, 10:19

I do hope the 20 limit will cover everywhere in Charlbury.  Hughes Close states ‘Home Zone’.  What a joke, folk always speeding down to Sturt Road at around 40mph.  Is it possible to have some temporary speed humps?

Wed 31 May 2023, 10:56

For information. Link below to the sentencing guidelines for speeding. Worth noting that 41 mph in a 20 zone attracts a much higher penalty than 41 mph in a 30 zone.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/speeding-revised-2017/

Tue 30 May 2023, 16:34

There was a Charlbury person in a blue Honda CRV driving at 50 mph on Spelsbury Rd the other day - I know because I was behind. The person was driving a small child of about 6 years of age. Speeding with a child in the car? 

Sun 28 May 2023, 21:12

People objected to drink driving laws (lives saved), people objected to seat belts (lives saved), slower speeds are more than than just that, it's a change in behaviour from the car obsessed society that exists i.e. walk, cycle, bus, train and have respect for people in doing so i.e how would like someone driving at excessive speed towards you/past you when you are on foot, cycling, with children or just wanting less noise and pollution.

Sun 28 May 2023, 06:23

How much longer does it take driving at 25mph on the Spelsbury Rd instead of 30mph? About 15 seconds. That is going to make a massive difference. 

Sat 27 May 2023, 23:44

Just wondering if there is going to be any gathering/street party to celebrate this huge achievement (20mph speed limit all over the town)? I am guessing a lot of people put a lot of effort to get this sorted🤘

Sat 27 May 2023, 09:34 (last edited on Sat 27 May 2023, 09:35)

I don't think the police will care unless they've been asked to do a speed check. I've driven through Burford several times behind police cars without lights/sirens and they consistently go at 30mph. So I'm sure they'll do the same everywhere else. 

(Advice though pls on what to do about people driving at 25mph on the 30mph from Spelsbury? As I've said several times, my mother may be needing an ambulance for heart failure and I really wasn't impressed to find a Charlbury vehicle doing this yesterday when I was on my way back having had a call to check she was ok) 

Fri 26 May 2023, 18:06

Simon, you've absolutely hit the nail on the head. People do ignore the current restrictions, and when I put my speed limiter on at 20, I invariably get someone right up my... well, tailgate... Meanwhile, the potholes are still there worse than ever, and the white circles around them are fading fast.

Fri 26 May 2023, 17:02

What is the actual benefit in lowering the speed limit to 20mph when you see so many cars ignoring the current 30mph signs?  Hopefully these new signs come with the appropriate enforcement from our police or this will have been a waste of money that could have been spent repairing a couple of potholes?

Fri 26 May 2023, 07:44

From recent schemes, I anticipate there will be a need to ask the County Council to add signs in some fairly obvious spaces.

Fri 26 May 2023, 06:34

Although I agree it's not an excuse for driving at the higher speed, I do feel the need to advocate for people who aren't local, that don't happen to know that it's non permanent paint and not graffiti , and don't happen to know it's a lower than normal speed limit. 

Now thinking of the speed limits following onto side streets, I do think that needs clarification.  But maybe think about the other way round, say you love on a side street, don't know about any of these changes as you drive maybe once a week, or don't follow this forum , you could drive from a side street onto a main street for quite a while before seeing a repeater sign.

I checked this morning , for me I would be on the main for 200m and pass a camera van location before I saw the speed limit.

Thu 25 May 2023, 20:51

It’s non-permanent paint – standard highway authority issue for signs that haven’t come into force yet. OCC uses it at 20mph installations all the time. The Oxford Mail has got very exercised about it because they don’t understand what it’s for (not unusual for the Oxford Mail).

Thu 25 May 2023, 20:46

James - I assume so.

Where the 20mph roundels need supplementing, I have a stock of Correx signs of the kind seen across the county in recent times.  Suggested locations welcome.

Thu 25 May 2023, 20:10

Gareth – is the grey paint sprayed over the 20 numerals on the speed signs around town an impermanent paint applied by the highways authority, to be removed when the limit comes into force? I had assumed it was vandalism, but would be great to hear it isn't?

Thu 25 May 2023, 20:01 (last edited on Thu 25 May 2023, 20:11)

Once you have entered a speed limit (i.e2  20mph) all connecting roads are included.  For example if you drive down a 40mph limited road and you'll see the connecting roads may have the reduced limit, be it 20 or 30 or whatever, if there are no signs the limit will be 40mph.

Thu 25 May 2023, 19:04

Michael - no.  The 30 exists here by default except where advised.  No excuse for speeding.

Thu 25 May 2023, 18:50

Richard , thank you for the information , interesting to see there not putting additional signs up on all side roads.

The way I understand it, is that speed limits don't just " follow on" , there needs additional signage at every road that joins a main road 

 https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

 I did note that some of the new 20 MPH signs are covered , with this , haven't we , even for a short while actually increased the speed limit in some parts to 50 as the 30 is no longer there and the 20 isn't there / legible or enforceable?

Thu 25 May 2023, 17:07

The County Council won’t give legal force to the 20mph limit until the signs are in.  This is why some of them are currently covered.

When that happens, we’ll post details here.

Thu 25 May 2023, 16:57 (last edited on Thu 25 May 2023, 16:58)

https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/charlbury_20mph30mph_crossing2023 – see the Consultation Plan links on the right.

I think the signs are still being installed so probably best to wait until it’s all done.

Thu 25 May 2023, 16:43

First of all my apologies if their has been posted but I couldn't find it.

However I am wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of where all the new signage will be going .

I'm curious as to why we are reducing the main streets to 20 MPH but possibly leaving the side streets still at 30 MPH